RTR Loco

[Hobby]

Using the right resin, yes I'd agree, John. I came back from Hungary with one of these which is made from resin. However the manufacturer said that they'd tried about 5 different types before settling on the one this is made from... Others were too brittle, too flexible, etc. the quality is streets ahead of the Shapeways ones, though no doubt they'll get better... In the meantime I paid the extra for the quality...

[pilotfriend]

I rest my case. Thanks Hobby

[jaymzhatstand]

There have been some very important points to consider raised in this thread, and I think everyone has some valid comments (good to see thought going into it all, not just wading in with the 'I'm right listen to me' attitude!) and long may it continue!

I know there are many issues for a manufacturer or prospective designer to consider, and all of them are fraught with financial and market related pitfalls, however the model railway industry over the last few years has shown us that there are people willing to throw caution to the wind and take those risks.  Who would have thought, for example that we'd see a range of RTR prototype diesels from a variety of manufacturers (Bachmann's DP1, and the Heljan Falcon, Kestrel and forthcoming DP2), or the Dapol/Kernow well tanks and  the selection of items from the likes of Golden Age Models, in various scales at a premium price.  Many of these models have a very limited appeal, but more appear on the future releases lists, showing that there must be something in models which until recently were the domain of kit building or modifying what was already about.

Obviously UK outline narrow gauge is a smaller spectrum, and there are very few locomotives which could be mass produced with little detail variation but still having livery choices, especially if the detail standards are to be anything near what many people would expect. 

The humble and ubiquitous small quarry hunslet immediately springs to mind, there are variations in detail of course such as cab styles, boiler fittings and such, but the basic outline appears to be pretty standard (ducks to avoid corrections being thrown!), and if ths is indeed the case then as an RTR project, it could be considered viable.  Many still exist, they are recognisable, plenty of livery variations, names, enough detail differences to encourage more than one on a layout with it looking swamped and the detail differences wouldnt require too much extra tooling, just 'plug in' bits (dapol square splashers on one well tank spring to mind)

The L&B Manning Wardles again, to the casual observer are very similar in outline (but again with some structural differences ahich are workable around), and now, thanks to LYD, there is the BR black option available too.

As a third option, a simplex 'tin turtle' could be considered as it's fairly iconic and there's also the roof off option to consider, and it doesnt involve too much exterior detail and therefore the patterns/moulds wouldnt have to be too complex.

A range of rolling stock to accompany any loco would probably be needed in some form, but standard designs are again hard to find, especially ones not already easily obtainable from Parkside and the like.  The Hudson V tippers are pretty common, but Parkside produce them but there are other wagons which use that chassis, and a free rolling small wheelbase chassis would, I believe be a cert.  Yes, there are the useful Peco chassis, but they are pretty solid, and not open like most visible wagon chassis.

Well, that was going to be my five penneth worth, but it's more like a couple of quid at least!

Cheers

J

[Tigger]

An L&B loco would probably be very popular and if designed correctly could provide a choice of cabs as well.  The chassis might also be useful for those of us who still have loads of Chivers 2-6-2 kits in stock.  (I'm now in that nasty dilemma of "do I build the kits and use up the chassis I laid in for the purpose and still have in stock or do I not build the kits and keep the chassis to replace the ones I've already got in service under existing Chivers locos when they expire"!)  On the other hand, a W&LLR loco would probably prove equally popular and might be a little more flexible, chassis-wise.  A Festiniog Fairlie would be extremely popular but only with a few people (if that makes sense...)  I still like the Eggerbahn Decauville locos anyway!

[B.Meldon]

An L&B loco would probably be very popular and if designed correctly could provide a choice of cabs as well.  The chassis might also be useful for those of us who still have loads of Chivers 2-6-2 kits in stock.  (I'm now in that nasty dilemma of "do I build the kits and use up the chassis I laid in for the purpose and still have in stock or do I not build the kits and keep the chassis to replace the ones I've already got in service under existing Chivers locos when they expire"!)  On the other hand, a W&LLR loco would probably prove equally popular and might be a little more flexible, chassis-wise.  A Festiniog Fairlie would be extremely popular but only with a few people (if that makes sense...)  I still like the Eggerbahn Decauville locos anyway!

Unfortunately as has been said before, the economics of producing a R-T-R 009 Uk outline locos just do not add up.
Paul Windle has been making R-T-R 009 locos for many years now and I do not think he has sold more than about 1,200 in all that time and he has had many different types available over the years.
So the expected sales of just one type of UK outline loco would be far too small to cover the design and production costs.
The HOe locos have an international appeal not just in the UK, and why should anyone make a UK outline loco when the US and European outline R-T-R locos sell ok in the UK anyway?

I have been told that the UK amounts to about 5% of the sales of H0e R-T-R, and that N gauge (standard gauge) out sells 009 in the Uk by about 50 to one, but these figures could be inaccurate.


Brian Meldon

[invercloy]

I think a genuine RTR model would be a different kettle of fish to a Windle build though.  Not wishing to belittle Paul's efforts, far from it, I want to order something from him soon, If (hypothetically) Roco had produced the double fairlie it would have been sat on shelves in boxes ready for people to take away as opposed to having to wait for one.  That, in my opinion, would make it much more appealing to buyers, and likely to sell in higher numbers.  How much higher though is the $1m question!

[Tigger]

Brian's absolutely right, of course and this has been debated many times over the years.

Tom - please remember not to try tunnelling out of your cardboard replica...

[B.Meldon]

For all those that think that a R-T-R 009 loco would be a viable proposition all you need to do is contact Kader Industrial Company Limited at Dongguan in China. They will happily price up a production run of any R-T-R locomotive. They can just handle the production or the entire design process.
They will even take an old 1960

[rhobat bryn]

I think a genuine RTR model would be a different kettle of fish to a Windle build though.  Not wishing to belittle Paul's efforts, far from it, I want to order something from him soon, If (hypothetically) Roco had produced the double fairlie it would have been sat on shelves in boxes ready for people to take away as opposed to having to wait for one.  That, in my opinion, would make it much more appealing to buyers, and likely to sell in higher numbers.  How much higher though is the $1m question!

For all those that think that a R-T-R 009 loco would be a viable proposition all you need to do is contact Kader Industrial Company Limited at Dongguan in China. They will happily price up a production run of any R-T-R locomotive. They can just handle the production or the entire design process.
They will even take an old 1960’s R-T-R H0e loco and produce a modern copy with better motors and gearing if you like. All you need to do is put up the money for the production run of say 2000 units. Perhaps you could take out a loan or up the mortgage on your house.
If they sell as well you think they will you will make a quick profit on your investment.
However if they do not sell well and you are left will 1500 unsold locos you may lose your home!
In short, put your money where your mouth is!

Brian Meldon

Having participated in this discussion before, I'm reluctant to contribute again for fear of repeating myself.  In principle, I agree with Invercloy that a readily available model is better than one that one has to wait for.  I too am also a Paul Windle fan and already have two of his locos on my wishlist.  The first rule of economics is that the customer prefers their product today rather than tomorrow.  There are of course issues of quality and price in order to establish the market.  This is something that, in the medium term, I am considering doing myself.  However given the difficult history of this issue, outlined very eloquently elsewhere by Brian Meldon, one would have to have a market strategy for establishing RTR models as a going concern as as well as a product strategy for the particular model that is produced.  Given the sums involved, I don't think taking a punt and hoping for the best is likely to succeed, a strategy more suited to a low-cost product in an already established market.

If my memory serves me correctly, someone is already in the process of producing a RTR Hunslet 0-4-0 quarry loco which, if the price and quality are attractive, would suit me as a combined goods yard shunter and station pilot.  It would be interesting to see what the economics of such a project will be, if those involved would be willing to share such commercially confidential information.

In business however the best financial rule is putting someone else's money where your mouth is, in this case the banks.  It requires the production of a credible business plan since if you can't convince someone else that it's a good idea, its likley to be a risky venture for your own money.

[Graeme Dunbar]

I would be very pleased to find that an 009 RTR loco was available, but like others I have my doubts. I am trying to imagine what sort of business model could make it a reality. I keep coming back to the "Paul Windle" model, or the Japanese "Garage Kit" manufacturer approach of selling brass kits but also producing assembled and painted models.

Who ever it is who is planning to produce 009 RTR locos has my admiration and got me intrigued!

[CharlieI]

When I jokingly asked the man from Ixion models if they would do their On30 'coffee-pot' in 009, he answered, quite seriously, that if I had got about

[invercloy]

For all those that think that a R-T-R 009 loco would be a viable proposition all you need to do is contact Kader Industrial Company Limited at Dongguan in China. They will happily price up a production run of any R-T-R locomotive. They can just handle the production or the entire design process.
They will even take an old 1960's R-T-R H0e loco and produce a modern copy with better motors and gearing if you like.

I agree, look at the Ixion Models coffee pot, that is just such a venture, all someone has to do is stump up the cash.  Although if it were me I can think of many things I'd rather have before a repro 1960s model.

[rhobat bryn]

When I jokingly asked the man from Ixion models if they would do their On30 'coffee-pot' in 009, he answered, quite seriously, that if I had got about

[CharlieI]

When I jokingly asked the man from Ixion models if they would do their On30 'coffee-pot' in 009, he answered, quite seriously, that if I had got about

[rhobat bryn]

Shifting  1000 units is a big ask.  I suspect the costs for doing the Minitrains locos were lower beacuse some of the original tooling could be used?

I agree Charlie.  Although I don't have any figures for the size of the market, I think a 1000 units would be impossible to shift, even over a prolonged period.  I think it would be necessary to keep the price under