RTR Loco

[Graeme Dunbar]

I don't think choice of prototype is that difficult, it's been discussed on NGRM in the past and one opinion that several agreed with was to produce RTR models of catalogue items that manufacturers would send out in larger numbers.

While perfectly logical, I'm not sure that basing the choice of model on the number of prototypes produced, bears any relation to what would sell in economic numbers. I think that is wishful thinking and a "committee decision" by the participants in the discussion that resulted in a decision that offended least number of people. Possibly they had the unspoken ulterior motive that such a model could be adapted into representations of other prototypes.

If the model is going to end up being modified and repainted anyway, it comes back to what would sell is a kit and not an RTR model. I wonder what the viability of an injection moulded kit to fit a commercial chassis is? A stumbling block for beginners is assembling whitemetal or brass kits wheras anyone can glue a plastic kit together (or more importantly think they can)  (and possibly to their fingers, the kitchen table.....  ;D )

All this is hypothetical  :D

[rhobat bryn]

There are a number of points that have arisen which give food for thought.

The first one is that most of the rest of the world models in HO whereas 009 is mainly confined to the UK.  This is an extremely pertinent point (and I have to say one that I was not aware of) and raises questions about the real size of the market.  To market 009 locos abroad would involve having to sell the idea of 009 in the first place in a market where HO is already established before beginning to sell the product itself.  This is not a good place to start when launching a new product.  Established markets are a far easier prospect.

Secondly, the point made by GraemeD, that basing a production decision on people's opinions is rarely reliable, is an extremely important one.  I work as a Welsh tutor and we have asked customers what kind of courses they would like to see run, organised them only to have them poorly attended.  Production decisions need to be based on market behaviour, i.e. what people actually buy and what is selling well now, offering the customer the benefit of not having to build it, thus enabling them to spend their time on other things.

Thirdly, the point made about modification is also a valid one.  The product would have to be something that people would want to run as it was offered, since modification begins to drift back towards kit building and the whole point of RTR is that you do not need those skills to have a railway.  As for repainting however, I'm not sure that's the same obstacle since people like to have layouts which look original.  Being able to repaint a locomotive is a way of making it your own without getting into crafting skills.

So what are the signs in the market that there is demand for a RTR product?  Well as already mentioned, modellers in the UK are buying HO Minitrains and painting them according to their particular needs.  Paul Windle has already discovered that there is a market for this and produces RTR for a reasonable price, given the labour involved, even if it is carried out on a commission basis.  Also Chris Ward is halfway there by producing a single body which is then fitted onto a chassis, again admittedly on a commission basis.

As to product, again Paul Windle produces a general range of 0-4-0Ts and 0-6-0Ts, among others, which enables the modeller to choose from a range of variations, but all of which has a sufficiently standard appearance so as to not represent any particular railway, except for the cognoscenti who can draw on their specialist knowledge.

The other crucial factor would be price.  If we take Invercloy

[Mike Griff]

In my humble opinion, RTR locos  and other stock would encourage new participants in narrow guage modelling.
The world must contain large numbers of people that enjoy the look of narrow guage and have an interest in its adoption as a layout format due to its potential space saving virtues, unfortunately they drop the subject when faced with the question of available stock. Not everyone wants to have to build everything.
I have not been modeling 009 long and thouroughly enjoy my meagre dabblings but i have questioned my choice of format directly as a result of the difficulty of acquiring chassis/locos/stock.

Regards to all Mike.

[gallopingalice]

I have recently aquired two Chris Ward 3D printed loco bodies.
They fitted Kato '103' chassis immediately.

Whilst the digital resolution leaves a visibly stepped surface,
this is readily burnished to give a very acceptable finish.

HEY!!!
I think that Chris Ward and his ilk, can print from 3rd party drawings, probably
to fit a given chassis.

If the society, as a whole, could agree on a body and chassis ------ ?
Maybe an RTR could materialise.

regards richard

[pilotfriend]

This issue rolls on and on. The only RTR models that would have a chance of success are models of locomotives that run on the FR/RhE. Simply, there are enough people going through the doors to have a reasonable chance of impulse buying. Roco's vaunted double Fairlie came to nothing however. This should be a clue.

When looking at the undoubted quality of new RTR models in 00 scale, it would be a requirement that any 009 RTR model would be built to the same standards.

[rhobat bryn]

I came to a different conclusion to pilotfriend but that may be because we are talking about different markets.  There is the newcomer to railway modelling who wants to get started but doesn't feel confident about their modelling skills and then there is the 009 train set market which I assume the previous poster was referring to.

As stated in previous posts, I do not believe a loco that is too easily identifiable as belonging to a particular railway would appeal to the first market since I think most modellers want their layout to have its own identity; the FR brand is so strongly identified by its locomotives that it is difficult to think of any other railway when seeing those engines, though this has not prevented the use of Beyer-Garratts on several narrow gauge layouts.

The figure of

[pilotfriend]

I was actually referring to locos rather than train sets.

I suppose my point is that RTR in H0 and 00 has reached such a high standard, I wonder if an inferior 009 product is acceptable. 009 as a scale still carries an image, among some, as 'cheap' and toylike. This is, IMO, very sad indeed.

Actually, those modelling in this scale have never had it so good. Yes, more real modelling is required and IMO, that is actually a good thing. Narrow gauge modelling represents a branch of modelling where instant gratification straight out of the box is not much of an option.

Looking at Germany, where vast amounts of money are spent of model railways, the trend there is to buy everything ready made, open the boxes and tip it onto a baseboard. Come to think of it, you can even purchase your entire railway ready made.

Modelling is a skill, IMO, and not something like Lego.

[rhobat bryn]

Thank you for the clarification regarding 'train sets'.  And your point regarding the standard of any 009 product is an important one which deserves to be the subject of its own thread, as could the subject of how to improve the number involved in quality modelling; both of which are important issues.

However the question of the availability of RTR locos is more to do with widening accessibility to the 009 world.  If someone sees a high quality layout, they may be inspired to take up modelling themselves or improve the quality of what they do already.  But there may be others, who are not modellers or would like to be but do not have the confidence, who would like to be able to set up a 009 layout without the impediment of having to acquire kit building skills.  Thus they can have the pleasure of enjoying their own 009 world, even if that does not meet with the approval of others.

I'm not sure I see it as an 'either/or' question.  Surely 'both/and' is the best and most inclusive way forward.  I doubt whether any serious modeller started at the top of the ladder, unless they were particularly gifted, but like everyone else had to start at the bottom.  The point being made, certainly by myself, is that the bottom of the ladder is not as inclusive as it could be and RTR locos would go some way to lowering the barriers of entry to the hobby.  The question of the quality of what is offered at the top of the ladder is another question in itself.

[pilotfriend]

I do not see someone suddenly beginning 009 modelling before they have seen what is available in other scales. One look at some of the new 00 Bachmann products ( the S&D 2-8-0 for instance) and I could just see them shy away from some crude little undetailed 'starter loco' in 009.

I think that this has been a prime factor why so many people have moved to larger scales.

The truth is that much of 009 has fallen more and more behind the RTR standards found elsewhere.

OK for kids though if it works reliably, which is not a given.
JdF

[Whitworth]

I think the OO9 following, as has been mentioned, isn't large enough to support a profitable manufacturing run. Now bearing in mind most OO9 loco's are built from a chassis and a body kit, perhaps we are asking the wrong question. Maybe it would be easier to approach a manufacturer with a view to producing some N gauge locos which had suitable chassis's with outside frames etc for kit conversion to OO9. That way its less of a gamble for them as there is already a steady market for their products, and there are probably more than enough body kits to satisfy most OO9 needs.
Perhaps not an ideal solution but it would go some way to satisfy a smaller market whilst maintaining profitability.
TTFN

[pilotfriend]

Already we have 3 good outside frame chassis. Farish class 08, Lilliput 0-4-0 and Bemo.

[Whitworth]

Didn't know about the Farish 08, I've got one of the older ones which is inside frame. Had a look at some of the 'larger' Bemos. Glad I was sitting down!

[pilotfriend]

Several of my locos are based on the Farish N scale class 08. They have all run many actual miles.

One of my L&B locos is based on a Bemo diesel outside frame chassis (even second hand was

[B.Meldon]

There are some things of interest in the history of 009/HOe to consider when talking about 009 RTR production.

The only 'mass produced' 009 model

Firstly the only ever attempt to produce a RTR train set and marketed as 009 was the Jeouf/Playcraft pre-formed layout. The Jouef loco and V tip wagons are actually over scale for 009, but back in 1967 were close enough. This did not sell at all well, even with several model shops displaying the layout in the window it took them some time to sell the layouts.

Previous

[pilotfriend]

Thank you Brian. Well said.These days, though, I do think that many enter into narrow gauge after travelling on the preserved railways. Many, I think would love to model their favourite prototypes if there was an easy solution. I actually think that this is potentially the biggest chance of entry into 009 if some guidance and kits were offered which would afford the newcomer to a reasonable chance of success.

The La Meuse kit is an example of what can be done with the 08 chassis, although in that case, I think the valve gear could be described as 'advanced'. The solutions are there and all it needs is a kit manufacturer to see the potential.

The advantage of 009 over larger scales is that the landscape can be modelled.