RTR Loco

[EDGOZ2WAR]

Hi Folks
I was wondering what loco most people would like to see as a RTR.

[rhobat bryn]

That's a very interesting question.  From a personal point of view, I would like to see a 009 Tralee & Dingle 2-6-2T since I want two for my railway and they aren't available commercially.

From a business point of view, I suppose you would have to choose something that was widely used on layouts and flexible in its application, an 0-4-0 quarry locomotive or an 0-6-0 goods engine.  Paul Windle produces a wide selection of ready to run locomotives built to order which he has presumably chosen on the basis of what sells best.

[JulienW]

Hi Rhobat.

The T&D locos are around as kits.

The OOn3 kit is still (as far as I know) available from Branchlines and can be built to 009 - I think that Andrew Mullins (former proprietor of Branchiles) used to do a set of extra parts to make it outside framed and there was a photo of one so built in 009 News some time ago made by one of our Japenese members (Yuji Niwa I think? - perhaps someone else can confirm and post details, please).

In addition Chivers Finelines did a HO scale body kit to fit on a Farish Hall chassis.  It may not be currently available, but if you contacted Matt Chivers direct (or through the NGRM Forum) as he now looks after the Chivers 4mm scale range he may be able to help assuming thet the moulds are still useable.  One came up on eBay recently and though the bidding has finished there may still be a photo to see if you search for item number 260847955518.

Personally I have thought that a cobination of the Chivers body kit, an new farish 08 chassis and a set of cylinders from RT models would make a nice loco...

With respect to Paul Windle, he actually decides on what locos to build based on what chassis he can get. His skill lies in 'massaging' a scale drawing or photo of a loco to fit an available chassis and getting something beliveable as a result.  The beauty of him building to order is that he is not restricted to 'what sells well'.  I doubt when Paul built the first 2-8-0+0-8-2 Sierra Leone garrat on a pair of Bachmann 2-8-0 chassis that he would have ended up building at least 6 of the things - more than the real railway ever had!

Comming back to Ed's question I think that the main attraction of 009 is that there is no ready to run.  If there where then 009 would become much the same as many other branches of the model railway hobby, i.e. more than a little bland (otherwise known as 'Oh look, another GWR branch line terminus based on Ashburton').

[rhobat bryn]

Many thanks for the information on the T & D loco.  I'm still learning to put plastic cattle vans together so I'm not quite ready for loco building but it's good to know that it will be possible when the time arrives.

As for RTR availability, I agree that one of the great things about the 009 world is the variety of ideas found in layouts and the imagination and inventiveness used in producing models of such high quality and that give such pleasure.  However as a beginner, the idea that one can't have a 009 layout until one has learned to build loco kits is quite an inhibiting one.  In order to make the gauge accessible, it would do no harm to have some RTR models available to get people started.  Paul Windle fills this gap beautifully making very credible models for a very reasonable price, given the work involved.

If an RTR model was to be successful, it would have to have newcomer appeal.  My own personal example is the Eggerbahn steam railcar which I fell in love with as a child.  In fact it was coming across it in a model railway shop (as an adult) and buying it that reawakened my interest in 009.  But it would also have to be capable of being modified by the more experienced modeller for their purposes.  I believe that some people are already doing this with the Minitrains 0-4-0 loco. 

Once people have made a start with RTR, they can move up to the more challenging models as their confidence and interest develops.

[tedp]

This photo may be of interest to you, in view of the fact the T&D locos cropped up:

It compares the 3.5mm scale Chivers T&D Hunslet mentioned above, to a 4mm scale Parkside T&D van, and a T&D brake van about 1:80 scale. The loco runs on a Farish 4MT tank chassis which has slightly larger wheels so it sits a bit higher on the track. The cab has been made taller by about 2mm. The van of course is unchanged. In real life the locos were taller than the vans. The brake van was made using a card 'kit' designed by Paul Titmuss. This I scaled down to something halfway 3.5 and 4mm scales, so it wouldn't tower over the engine.

The T&D loco by Chivers isn't a ready to run model, but it goes together well and it fits on the Farish chassis without a problem. It's an easy kit to build. The most difficult thing was fitting a fixed coupling on an extension to the pony truck and through the cowcatcher.

Why 3D? well, D as in 'Dunalistair'...  ;D

[tedp]

Returning to Eddie's question about an RTR loco, with the Minitrains RTR loco available, perhaps a bigger loco would be a good choice for an RTR model. Something suitable both for industry and main line NG work. Perhaps an 0-6-0 or an 0-6-2, or a T&D look-alike.

And apart from Paul Windle's work, let's not forget the 3D printing range marketed by Chris Ward (http://www.chrisjward.co.uk/) - this is the next best thing to RTR. I'm told they still need a bit of work to clean up the surface, but perhaps the resolution will improve, and someone will market a scale body that can be fitted on any suitable N gauge chassis!

[EDGOZ2WAR]

Thanks everyone. I was also thinking along the lines of an 0-4-0 or an 0-6-0. I have to agree that the fun of 009 is the fact that we get to build what we want but to a newcomer or someone who would like to add a narrow gauge line to a 00 layout it can be a bit off putting. I have no problem with building engines or rolling stock but all this takes time which very few of us have to spare nowadays so a decent model that runs right out of the box would be an advantage. The other thing is that a RTR model would be able to have a chassis where the motor could be hidden instead of showing in the cab which we have to put up with on a lot of kits.

[rhobat bryn]

Yes Ted, I've seen your T & D loco on your website and it is much admired.  When I get to that loco kit building ability stage, I shall be on the forum again.  Until then, it remains a source of inspiration.

Given the existence of the Minitrains 0-4-0T already, perhaps an 0-6-0T, and as Ted suggests a bigger loco as well, would be a good place to start since it would be offering the great 009 public a new option.  Personally I think it is the dearth of chassises that is a problem.  I understand that N-Drive productions are beginning to address the shortage of suitable products.  But when I had to purchase a Farish 2-6-2 chassis for my Leek & Manifold loco, which cost a fortune and is entirely dependent on whether they choose to sell them or not, I felt the need for a reliable market in 009 chassises which would offer a considerable advantage to and enhanced convenience for the modeller.  I think this is where your point about having a chassis that could be hidden rather than showing in the cab is a very pertinent one.

[B.Meldon]

Unfortunately there is just no market for a mass produced 009 RTR loco.

However RTR 009 locos are available from Paul Windle, but these are hand built.

For the larger manufactures there would be no point producing a 009 loco when a HOe continental or US outline loco sell well in the UK anyway and have a far larger potential overall customer base.

So while we can all dream of a mass produced RTR 009 loco because of the economics it will probably never happen.

Anyway as a choice of the best thing to produce it would have to be a Port class Hunslet with outside frames and a short vertical motor in the cab. In other words a chassis with the maximum potential for use in other locos!

Brian Meldon

[rhobat bryn]

That raises the question of what exactly the economics of it are.  And if a continental or US loco can sell outside its indigenous market, that same opportunity should be available to a British profile, if the right loco is chosen.

[EDGOZ2WAR]

Brian. Judging by your response and that of the others who have answered my question we must have a market. I take it, that if a loco was available to buy you and the others would buy it and I,m sure many other members would too.

[JulienW]

I think the key issue is "if the right loco is chosen".

Ask a hundred 009 Society members what they would like to see as a ready to run loco and you'll get 100 different answers - actually you may get more than that as people change their minds as the project goes along.  What may seem like a popular choice, say a Port class Hunslet as suggested by Brian, to many may not be welcomed by others who would rather see such efforts go into something that was built in larger numbers and saw greater service worldwide, like a Hudswell Clarke or Barclay 0-6-0 (that would probably be more reliable with 6 wheel pick up).

Essentially RTR locos are available - just look at the number of HOe Lilliput 0-6-2s and Roco 0-6-0s (and others) that appear on 009 layouts - it must be said with varying degrees of success.

Equally, whilst I am sure that "if a loco was available to buy you and the others would buy it and I,m sure many other members would too" there is no guarentee of this, as I would find it hard to spend £100+ on a RTR Port class Hunslet when for the same ammount of money I can have Paul Windle build me something that I'd actually want to run on my layout.  And I can't be the only one, if only because the majority of 009 modellers would baulk at spending £100 or more on a RTR loco, no matter what it was...

[duttonbay]

That raises the question of what exactly the economics of it are.  And if a continental or US loco can sell outside its indigenous market, that same opportunity should be available to a British profile, if the right loco is chosen.

I don't believe this is the case. The US and Europe model to HO, as does most of the rest of the world. Britain is effectively the only place where 4mm scale is used. Generally British NG is small, and maybe could be used in HO (although the doors are too high). This suggests that the "right loco" would need to be small, so as not to look out of scale in a 3.5mm layout, but the smaller locos were not those typically exported. In a sweeping statement, I might say that most of the British NG locos exported tended to be larger than those which ran in the UK. OK, perhaps that is a generalization ... but an OO model of small locos which were exported become not-a-small loco when placed against HO narrow gauge.

Some years I ago I seriously considered the Backwoods Fowler diesel for the Dutton Bay, as these were used in Australia, but rejected the idea because it was so just too much bigger than my other HO scale models. In this case it was even worse, because the Fowler was an Australian (and Fiji) prototype and not even a British loco.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Speculation is such good fun! :D

I think there are two big hurdles (1) the economics (2) agreeing on a prototype to model.

As "serious" modellers are probably going to want very specific models, then selecting a prototype is going to be hard. Beginners and freelance modellers are likely to be rather less fussy.

My thoughts then are that a freelance Brittish-looking bodyshell on an existing chassis is the most likely to succeed.  Given that the Dapols, Farishes and overseas manufacturers have not already seen this as a "business opportunity" suggests to me that even this is a non-starter - unfortunately.

It is a pity because we are so close - just look at the Tomix Percy conversions. If ever there was path of least resistance/effort to an RTR model then this looks like a good candidate.

It is interesting by contrast to note that someone thought that there was a big enough market to re-engineer the Minitrains locos based presumably on the notion of middle-aged men with cash to spare wanting to buy the models they saw advertised in their youth. It seduced me!  :D. So there is a big enough market for old designs of uncertain proportion, origin and pedigree but apparently not for an accurate 4 mm  scale model of a UK prototype. I think it shows what a minority we are.

As I say, pure speculation......

[invercloy]

I don't think choice of prototype is that difficult, it's been discussed on NGRM in the past and one opinion that several agreed with was to produce RTR models of catalogue items that manufacturers would send out in larger numbers.

One such item was something akin to a Barclay, Jung or O&K, all of which are similar and could all be modelled with only some minor variations all from the same basic shell.

All hypothetical, however, as that doesn't overcome the economics.  I've heard that at least