Sailing Ships

[rhobat bryn]

I don't know whether ships count as scenery but I'm wondering whether there is a company which manufactures ships to 1:76 scale.  According to Ted Polet on his Craigcorrie and Dunalister website, they are pretty hard to come by but I wondered whether other members had had better luck.

[Whitworth]

I spent an evening on the web looking for the very same thing, all I could find was
http://www.modelslipway.com/puffer/puffer.htm

Would be very interested if anyone else has any joy.

[rhobat bryn]

Langley do a range of kits but sadly none of them is a sailing ship.

[Whitworth]

Nice one, quite a selection. I had looked at Langley for other stuff but never noticed the boat section, Doh! ;D

[pilotfriend]

Scratch building ships is a most satisfying hobby in itself and there is considerable support out there for bits and pieces and methodology. Go for the subject you wish and make it. PLEASE, NOT another Clyd puffer!

see http://www.009.cd2.com/members/how_to/collier.htm



JdF

[Charlie4472]

There is also a modern coaster available from scalescenes http://www.scalescenes.com/products/T030-Cargo-Ship

Charlie

[tedp]

What kind of sailing ship are you after? A coaster or something bigger? If you want a coastal schooner or a ketch you might consider buying a plastic kit for a bigger ship, but to a smaller scale, and modify it using detail parts obtained separately. You don't really need a ship in 4mm scale to start with, but even a three-masted ship in 1:120 or 1:150 could be scaled up to a two-masted schooner, provided you look at photos of suitable prototypes. It's the rigging that would need most attention.

For a small cargo ship, use a ship with a fat hull. The Beagle model by Revell might be a suitable starting point as it's 1:96 scale, although it needs modernising to arrive at an 1880s or later schooner or whatever. Look at the website here: http://www.revell.com/germany/ships/80-5458.html. Photo here: http://www.revell.com/product-images/80-5458-lg.jpg

Study the prototype and modify details accordingly. Late 19th century ships didn't have the elaborate 'gingerbread' ornaments of early 1800s ships - these were replaced by something more austere, or removed. This includes the ornate stern gallery and the 'galleon' or prow below the bowsprit. A rounded bow would be quite typical. The small mizzen mast could be removed and the gaff and boom moved forward to the mainmast which would make it into a suitable two-masted square rigged brig. Also, remove any guns and gunports.

Hope this is a useful idea.

[rhobat bryn]

The eventual aim would be a 'Western Ocean Yacht' which was a three-masted schooner which emanated from, among others, shipbuilders in Porthmadog.  However it's unlikely at this stage that I would get involved in building one myself.  Having only just started on a Parkside Dundas Tralee & Dingle Cattle Van for the first time, it'll be quite a while before I reach that level of ability.  However I have to say Ted that I was in part inspired by your use of the paddle steamer Lochalaistair.  Apart from being a particularly fine model, it also helps to give a sense of perspective to the railway and the trains.  I would hope that the schooner, provisionally named 'Mari Lwyd' would help to serve the same purpose.

I wonder could I also ask you to confirm the arithmetic for me.

The 'MA James', on which 'Mari Lwyd would be based, was 89' 6" LOA.  At 00 scale, I make that 358mm.  Converting to inches, I make that 14".  Does that sound about right?

[tedp]

Well, I confess I'm not familiar with the Western Ocean Yacht as a ship type. Would that be a full rounded hull or a sharpish one?

Lochalastair is a funny model as it was converted from a model of mid-19th century ship. It retains several features from that age, like the elaborate woodwork and the cast-iron funnel, but is supposed to be a turn-of-the century ship:



The hull length you have calculated for Mari Llwyd is about right. Exact size is quite unimportant - it's the impression which counts. But hull shape and rig type are paramount.

I have seen too many model 'ships' that don't look like anything. Try to build a model ship of the right shape and rig, which is more important than getting all the details right (ability comes from doing things yourself). If you cannot find a kit of the right shape, make your own hull from balsa, and finish it with detail parts you can find in a model shop. I'm prejudiced, but perhaps I may be forgiven, having been a sailor.... ;)

[rhobat bryn]

An illustration of 'MA James', the last of the Western Ocean Yachts to be built can be found at:

http://freespace.virgin.net/r.cadwalader/maritime/era/james.htm#top  (I'm sorry, I don't know how to turn this into a proper link.)

I agree totally; it's the impression that counts rather than complete accuracy.  One of my difficulties with the P4 philosophy, while admiring the skill and dedication of the modellers involved is that the end result can look rather clinical when attention to impression and atmosphere are overlooked.

Seeing that you were a sailor, I wonder if I may pick your brains further and ask you about the loading and unloading of such ships.  Would there have been a dockside crane during that period (1880s-1920s) or would there have been a derrick on board?

[Graeme Dunbar]

I know it is going off topic, but something I was told when trying to date old photos of people is that knowing the location (within the country) helps. In London, "high society" may be wearing the latest fashions, but out in the provinces even newly made clothes are going to be from an earlier age.

Not all ships, etc are going to be the latest design. It is most noticable in dockside photos, the ships do look anachronistic in "steam age" photos. A good number of them are going to be quite elderly.

[garrywhiting]

An illustration of 'MA James', the last of the Western Ocean Yachts to be built can be found at:
http://freespace.virgin.net/r.cadwalader/maritime/era/james.htm#top  (I'm sorry, I don't know how to turn this into a proper link.)

I suggest you get hold of a copy of Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railway Modelling Review magazine issue no.65. On pages 12 to 18, Nick Welch describes how he built "M A James" in 4mm scale for his Festiniog layout. No 65 is available as a back number from the publisher.

[rhobat bryn]

Subsequent to your post, I looked up my copy of Nick Welch's Ffestiniog Odyssey where Chapter 12 deals with the construction of the schooners, 'MA James' and 'Isallt'.  Thanks for the reference.

[tedp]

An illustration of 'MA James', the last of the Western Ocean Yachts to be built can be found at:

http://freespace.virgin.net/r.cadwalader/maritime/era/james.htm#top  (I'm sorry, I don't know how to turn this into a proper link.)

I agree totally; it's the impression that counts rather than complete accuracy.  One of my difficulties with the P4 philosophy, while admiring the skill and dedication of the modellers involved is that the end result can look rather clinical when attention to impression and atmosphere are overlooked.

Seeing that you were a sailor, I wonder if I may pick your brains further and ask you about the loading and unloading of such ships.  Would there have been a dockside crane during that period (1880s-1920s) or would there have been a derrick on board?

Thanks for the info on MA James - it seems this is a topsail schooner with what looks like a full-lined clipper hull (i.e. with a slightly hollow waterline curve at the bows and stern). Clipper doesn't necessarily mean a fast ship although the well known tea clippers were very fast ships with extremely fine lines.

There is a good photo of Port Dinorwic in the 1870s, showing three two-masted schooners in the harbour, with huge stacks of slates ashore and a train of slate wagons. It is on page 40 of 'the Welsh Narrow Gauge Railway', a 1976 book by DCA Prideaux. The photo comes from the Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru and it may have been published elsewhere. It doesn't show any loading gear, but the caption states that the slates were loaded using wheelbarrows. I think these were run aboard along a gangway. Probably that would have been a very general method of loading cargo. The loads would have been lowered into the hold by a block and tackle rigged over the hold.

Sailing ships in the late 1800s often had a small donkey steam engine for cargo work. Before those times they used a 'whip' or 'runner' rove through a block on a yard-arm or perhaps they topped (hoisted) one of the gaff sail booms for the same purpose. The 'whip' was a single rope worked by either a team of men or a hand powered capstan or winch. The load was hoisted, then the boom was swung inboard over the hatchway.

In steam or motor cargo ships they used derricks up to about 1985. The usual approach was to use one derrick rigged outboard and one inboard, with the runners shackled together. The load then can be transferred from one derrick to another.

Shore cargo cranes (steam or hand powered) were used in some cases, but they would have been difficult to manage amongst the rigging of a sailing ship. They weren't uncommon though - look at the typical railway goods yard crane and you'll have an idea of them. There are plenty of old photos showing them about. Many were mobile steam cranes running on rails, often on standard or broad gauge track.



Finally I have shown a photo taken in Indonesia in 1974. This shows a steam train on the quay, an early 20th Century overhead bridge crane (only the bridge visible over the tracks), and a cargo ship with the derricks rigged outboard and inboard, for use with coupled runners. The photo might have been taken in 1910 and shows loading gear which is one step advanced from the primitive methods described above, which were still in use up to about 1940.

Hope this helps you along.

[rhobat bryn]

Yes, thanks Ted; that's very informative.  I believe the Western Ocean Yachts were designed with speed in mind and a crew of about 6 to cut down on costs.  In his book 'Ffestiniog Odyssey', Nick Welch quotes from Henry Hughes' 'Immortal Sails' in saying that the MA James sailed from Porthmadog to Cuxhaven in Germany in 4 1/2 days, a journey of about 1000 miles.

Not having seen a dockside crane in any of the photos of the Western ports of Wales suggests that the wheelbarrow and block and tackle method of loading and unloading is the most credible.  I shall bear this in mind when I get to the maritime stage of developing the layout.  In the meantime, its back to the Tralee & Dingle Cattle Van.