Sailing Ships

[tedp]

1000 miles in 4 days and a half? That's not bad sailing, it's an average of about 9 knots.

Yes, I think the wheelbarrow and block & tackle method of loading would be widespread. Labour was quite cheap in those days.
I just remember the way they loaded coal in Campbeltown: they had a steam crane on the end of the pier which swung the CMR coal wagons over the hold of a Puffer to discharge through the end door of the wagon. This would indicate steam cranes would have been used for heavy (bulk) loads and certainly not for something as delicate as dressed slates.

[rhobat bryn]

Talking of coal, I visited the Kathleen & May today at the Barry Tall Ships Festival, which is a three masted topsail schooner built in 1900 at Connah's Quay.  One of the guides on the ship suggested that the coal would have been transported in sacks on this particular vessel.  The loading and unloading would have been carried out by men carrying sacks of coal on their backs.  I wonder whether the use of cranes would have depended on the type of vessel being used as well as the geographical location.  Wales was not renowned for its wealth at this point in its history (and still isn't!) so investment at Welsh ports may well have been kept to a bare minimum.  By contrast, the example you cite from Campbeltown sounds like quite an elaborate affair.  What sort of vessels would have been used at Campbeltown for the transport of coal?

[tedp]

The coal was transported from Campbeltown in Clyde Puffers, although I expect other small coasters would have been used as well. There was a pier on one side of the harbour which had double track on it. There was a steam crane on the pier which picked up loaded wagons, emptied them over the hold, then put the empty wagons on the other track. As each of the wagons was about 4 tons of coal, this was a substantial load. I expect a Puffer would be able to discharge the coal using its derrick, and some sort of tilting bucket - I have seen this arrangement in use on barges in this country up to a few decades ago.

The runner of the derrick would have been wound a few turns on a revolving capstan head driven by the steam winch. Pulling on the end would increase the friction so the load would be hoisted. Releasing the runner would cause it to slip on the capstan and cause the load to be lowered, often in a rush.... This was a dangerous, though common practice which was forbidden in more recent times.

EDIT: I seem to remember a kind of cableway rigged from the hold of a barge to the top of a derrick slung outboard, with a tilting bucket that tipped over right at the top. This way a bulk cargo of sand, gravel or coal can be discharged very efficiently. Shovel the bucket full in the hold, then run it up the derrick and tip it over, afterwards drop the empty bucket down the cable into the hold again. The bucket had a squarish shape but was asymmetrical so the load would spill out to one side. Rather like a wedge. It's at least 40 or 50 years ago.

On sailing ships without steam power, having narrow hatchways unsuitable for bulk loading, manhandling cargo from shore to ship would have been widespread, either by carrying or using wheelbarrows. Casks for instance can be rolled over a gangway. Somewhere I have a photo of bunker coal being run aboard with a wheelbarrow over a gangway plank. The practice you describe of bags of coal being carried on men's backs was probably a very common sight. I remember coal merchants bringing bagged coal round the back of the house this way, emptying the bags into the coal locker in the shed.

[rhobat bryn]

That's fascinating, Ted.  Many thanks for that very detailed insight.  I think I'm clear now on how I will model this when the time comes to build the maritime section of the layout.  Thanks again.

[rhobat bryn]

I hope that, at least, Ted Polet is reading this but anyone with any knowledge of this subject is most welcome to offer their advice.

When a sailing ship entered harbour, and before the days of engines, it would have needed a gentle momentum to do this.  A comment made to me by a member of the Katherine and May team was that once engines came in, topsails were done away with.  Can I infer from this, that a ship was rigged showing topsails only in order to manoeuvre towards the dockside?

[JulienW]

That is possible, but I have a feeling that ships could also be manovered using the capstan and ropes fixed to a point, either an anchor on the bottom or a bollard on the dockside.    Equally,  a ship could be moved in the same way but with the capstan on the quayside and the rope tied to the ship, though this may be more likely when moving a ship towards the mouth of the harbour on departure at somewhere like Pentewan, which had a long narrow entrance.

I think that the correct term is 'warping' and was probably more widely used as it means a ship could be moved independently of any wind direction in a confined space.  Also possible is that as labour was cheaper then such maovering could be done by teels of men in rowing boats towing the ship.

Don't forget that it took some time for shipping to become fully steam (or i.c.) powered, with sail lasting quite some time (well into the 20th century judging by shots of Baltic timber carriers at Weymouth) but with the addition of a small steam plant for a maneuvering engine and / or winches (and capstans) or a small internal combustion engine(s), along with electric motors(?) to do much the same job.  It would have been much cheeper to fit smaller plant like this to 'help' than building a whole new 'non-sail' vessel from scratch or fitting a sail powered hull with a big enough power plant to drive the ship on its own.

[Hugh Norwood]

The Airfix "Bounty" is H0 but is near enough. I have made a waterline model out of it. Doing the rigging was a challenge.

Do Langley still stock the Artitec range of resin boats? Artitec are on the Web artitec.nl.

There's that Russian kit maker that was in the NEWS - OK it's a small boat. Darn! senior moment - It was Railway Modeller March 2011 p 223

[pilotfriend]

Aritec boats are still on the market and in the UK are sold by (among others) Langley. They are very much European designs though and are of course in H0

[Hugh Norwood]

I had a look at Ayrey's Web site - they are the agents for Zvezda models. There are an interesting variety of model ships (in 1/72) from this manufacturer (You have to go to the last page of the Zvezda section).

[tedp]

...When a sailing ship entered harbour, and before the days of engines, it would have needed a gentle momentum to do this.  A comment made to me by a member of the Katherine and May team was that once engines came in, topsails were done away with.  Can I infer from this, that a ship was rigged showing topsails only in order to manoeuvre towards the dockside?

...I think that the correct term is 'warping' and was probably more widely used as it means a ship could be moved independently of any wind direction in a confined space.  Also possible is that as labour was cheaper then such maovering could be done by teels of men in rowing boats towing the ship...

Warping is indeed the correct term. Sailing a square rigged ship in a confined area like a harbour is almost impossible, unless a light wind is with you and you have a stern anchor ready to let go as a brake. Perhaps a small schooner or a cutter can be sailed in harbour, but only with the greatest amount of care and under certain conditions. Remember these were all heavy long-keeled vessels that cannot turn very quickly. In dockyard and harbour areas there were many shore-based capstans used to warp ships in and out.

There were many ways to move a ship without steam power. On a roadstead they would lower boats and tow the ship where possible. The tide must have been used as well, where available. Using a spring rope spliced on a long anchor cable it is possible to sheer the ship across the tidal current, by angling it to the flow. In canals they used horses on a towpath. This is all very labour-intensive, so with the advent of steam, tugs were used from about 1840.

Doing away with topsails isn't something I know about. Topsails in a square rigger are the main working sails in confined areas, in stronger winds, or for manoeuvring like when coming to anchor. The courses (lower sails) were used mainly at sea. They were the first to go in mid-1800s steamships with auxiliary sails, but the topsails stayed for some time.

Smaller square rigged ships often lacked topgallants and royals (the third and fourth tier of sails). In full-rigged ships of the final generation (like the steel grain and guano carriers that sailed up to WW2) the topsails and topgallants became so big they had to be divided, making rigs with 5 or 6 tiers of sails, each on their individual yards. They sailed with small crews that wouldn't have been able to handle bigger sails.

The auxiliary engines Julien refers to would mainly have been used to power a windlass or a capstan for heavier work. They were called 'donkey' engines and would have been a great help in warping operations. Sailing ships with an auxiliary engine for propulsion were never a great success due to the weight, the additional drag of the propeller and the loss of cargo space. Only with the advent of compact diesel engines, small coastal traders were fitted with a propulsion engine. On long-distance seagoing ships like the 4,000 ton grain and guano carriers they were deemed inefficient.

[rhobat bryn]

I wonder if I can approach this topic from a different angle.  What has fired my imagination and curiousity on this subject is how one would model a moving sailing ship coming into harbour, using the R

[Graeme Dunbar]

I think the answer has to be to do whatever (part of the procedure) you want or are able to. It is an accepted part of the "fudge" of model railways that some things move and some don't and yet it appears not to destroy the overall illusion.

It is strange. A part of the model obviously out of scale or place grates, but certain random articles moving when all else is still doesn't.

(It must be so ingrained in those of us brought up on clunky animated cartoons!) I believe it is because we "see" in our heads not with our eyes. The bandwidth requirements to do so would be enormous. Our eyes pick up certain visual clues and our brains fill in the (real world) model for us. We are all living in our own little Matrix.

[rhobat bryn]

Thank you, Graeme.  That's very sage advice.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Rhobat,

No ships as far as I know but there are some fascinating animations here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/scoopmmr

[rhobat bryn]

Thanks Graeme for the reference to the animations.  They were indeed fascinating and I agree with the modeller on the video when he says it isn't just the locos that have to be the the only moving element on the layout.  There is the danger of including too many moving items that provide for a very distracting layout but I think his basic point is a good one.  It's actually opened another idea for me regarding animation.  The models in the video are I believe in 7mm which makes it a little easier to produce them than 4mm.  But I have wondered for a long time if its possible to have a 4mm guard on the platform who, when you flick the switch, raises his arm with a green flag in his hand and lowers it again once the train has departed.