Kato 4 wheel chassis and Peco insulfrog points

[B.Meldon]

I have ordered one setrack point to experiment with before finalising a track plan. My problem is that since I will probably have to work with 90x60 cm, even the extra 38mm of an electrofrog point make a great different if I want to use two of them at either end of a passing loop at a small station. I will look more closely at the electrofrog Y points. The free Anyrail software I use make 'what if' ideas very easy to try, and proved very accurate when I had a very small OO gauge 'shunting plank' layout that has been abandoned in favour of 009 because I really want a loop so that I can relax and watch the trains go round.

With a 60cm board you are looking at using 9 inch curves.
To extend the length of your station loop just place the points at the end of the curve, not on the stright. Looking at the front of the layout it will be a left hand point on the left and a right hand point on the right.  There will still be enough room for the outer loop on a 60 cm deep board and for a train in the loop. This will also avoid having reverse curves in the passing loop can can cause couplings to lock up. 

[cp.409067]

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May I make reference to an excellent idea posited a couple of years ago by Neil Briggs for rendering Peco Setrack points live frog? The information is here on RMweb starting with Neil's post of 1 March 2020 and continuing to the end of the page.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/125126-scarside-009-the-easy-way/page/6/

Unfortunately the photographs provided by Neil are no longer available, but the essence of his idea was to make the flangeways around the frog conductive by inserting strips of 0.4mm nickel silver. I imagine brass would work equally well.

The strips were connected to the frog and the polarity switched as a result, the intent being that the locomotive wheels could pick up electricity via the flanges.

In a subsequent post I suggested that the metal strips might be chemically blackened so that they became less noticeable whilst continuing to be electrically conductive.


CP

[B.Meldon]

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May I make reference to an excellent idea posited a couple of years ago by Neil Briggs for rendering Peco Setrack points live frog? The information is here on RMweb starting with Neil's post of 1 March 2020 and continuing to the end of the page.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/125126-scarside-009-the-easy-way/page/6/

Unfortunately the photographs provided by Neil are no longer available, but the essence of his idea was to make the flangeways around the frog conductive by inserting strips of 0.4mm nickel silver. I imagine brass would work equally well.

The strips were connected to the frog and the polarity switched as a result, the intent being that the locomotive wheels could pick up electricity via the flanges.

In a subsequent post I suggested that the metal strips might be chemically blackened so that they became less noticeable whilst continuing to be electrically conductive.


CP

Sadly although this did improve the situation in the end it was not a great success.
I have operated Neil's layout and had locos stall in the points at slow speed.
Just for a start there is a very wide range of wheel flange sizes in use.
I doubt that Neil would ever spend the time and effort building another layout with dead frog points again.

[cp.409067]

[/quote]

Sadly although this did improve the situation in the end it was not a great success.
I have operated Neil's layout and had locos stall in the points at slow speed.
Just for a start there is a very wide range of wheel flange sizes in use.
I doubt that Neil would ever spend the time and effort building another layout with dead frog points again.
[/quote]

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Thank you for this update.

We are then back where many of us started - deeply disappointed that when Peco produced the current Setrack point they did not (as originally announced) make it with a "uni frog".


CP

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Thank you for the links - I had used the menu and search options and did not find these pages.

There's your problem, the Peco website navigation is not very good at all <rubbish>
I used to buy points on eBay, but don't anymore, unless they are listed as new old stock, as so many were not really useable that it didn't work out any cheaper.

[Stephen Rainsbury]

I too use set track points on micro layouts, and yes some locos will stall at slow speeds.

My Kato 103 locos are all slightly weighted so might stutter on the insulated bit only stall when crawling. The 109 and 110 based ones are ".. what insulated bit?" they just sail over.

Most others are fine too, but smaller 4 wheel locos would still stop for a breather as they went over.

However...

I am in the process of converting to DCC, and the addition of a stay-alive circuit completely overcomes this issue, and the occasional bit of dirt on the track. :-)  However its not cheap!

[Chester 009]

Re. 'What length train do you want to hold in the passing loop (at the risk of turning this into a layout design discussion)?'

About 35 cm - one typical loco body on  a Kato 109 chasses, plus 2 'kit bashed' ratio small grounded coach bodies which are about 12 cm each and a little space at each end. I have tried the electrofrog Y points on a curve using my Anyrail software, and can do it using setrack ST-403 transition curves at the toe end to link to 16-17 cm radius flexitrack, and got a 35 cm passing loop. My first attempt at 009 used the medium radius electrofrog points connected directly to flexitrack of this radius and I had derailment problems that were fixed by using the ST-403 pieces in this way. Perhaps it helps having a rigid piece of curved track in that position.

[B.Meldon]

Thank you for this update.

We are then back where many of us started - deeply disappointed that when Peco produced the current Setrack point they did not (as originally announced) make it with a "uni frog".


CP

There are still issues with unifrog points as they do have small plastic sections of track.
In practice it is just not possible to make these plastic section small enough so they do not cause four wheel locos to stall. It works ok with larger scales and with locos with more wheels that pick up, but again is not so good for the four-wheel pickup locos that proliferate in 009.

In short unifrog is not the answer for 009 points, what is needed are electrofrog points, just as was made by Peco in the 1970's.

In 009 we only had 12 inch points for over 30 years and we just planned our layouts around these.

[Chester 009]

The 109 and 110 based ones are ".. what insulated bit?" they just sail over.

I now have one insulfrog point and a few bits of track to test it with, and my locos on the Kato 109 chassis run perfectly through it, even at a very slow crawl. The only problem was the fact that a minute particle of dust can insulate the contact where the hinged blade meet the side rail, which also occurs with the electrofrog points, so as always regular cleaning should be the answer. I cannot foresee being able to afford expensive models with wheelbases shorter than the 109 chassis, so will probably try a small layout using 4 or 5 insulfrog points with wire in tube control.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Glad you got it checked out and working to your satisfaction. I reckon you have gone about it in the right way.

[Chester 009]

Glad you got it checked out and working to your satisfaction. I reckon you have gone about it in the right way.

I note some comments about the older Kato 4 wheel chassis, but the 109 model appears to have improvements that make it practical for use with insulfrog points. Also, after re-appraising available space I have had to go for a 500 wide baseboard (probably a Grange and Hodder 914 x 500 mm plywood kit one), so the size and radius of the points is even more critical.

[B.Meldon]

Glad you got it checked out and working to your satisfaction. I reckon you have gone about it in the right way.

I note some comments about the older Kato 4 wheel chassis, but the 109 model appears to have improvements that make it practical for use with insulfrog points. Also, after re-appraising available space I have had to go for a 500 wide baseboard (probably a Grange and Hodder 914 x 500 mm plywood kit one), so the size and radius of the points is even more critical.

Obviously at the end of the day it is up to you what points you use.
As I have said before there is no way I would spend the time, money and effort building a layout with dead frog points.

Most chassis are good when new, but it is as they have use and start to ware that the stalling in dead frog points can become an issue.

[cp.409067]

..... Also, after re-appraising available space I have had to go for a 500 wide baseboard (probably a Grange and Hodder 914 x 500 mm plywood kit one), so the size and radius of the points is even more critical.

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There is no law that says 12ins radius (electrofrog) points have to be used with the same radius curves. A mix of these points with somewhat tighter radius track can and does work. I speak from experience.

[See for example the track plan of my "Pyn Valley Railway" - RM, November 2018, pp.917-921.]


CP

[Graeme Dunbar]

There is no law that says 12ins radius (electrofrog) points have to be used with the same radius curves. A mix of these points with somewhat tighter radius track can and does work. I speak from experience.

An example of how that might be applied would be a passing loop starting on a curve of an oval where the curved road of the point acts as a sort of transition curve. There are some schools of layout design that would always include transition curves, though that is perhaps more of a standard gauge or mainline approach where prototype speeds are higher.

[Chester 009]

The 18-inch radius 009 electrofrog Y point is only 24mm longer than the set track point. Re-designing you track plan to incorporate these along with the 12-inch radius 009 electrofrog points that are 38mm longer should be possible. Even if this involves some simplification of the track plan, I am sure that in the long run this will prove a far better way forward than using the dead frog points.

Although my experiments with insulfrog points have shown no problems with the Kato 4 wheel chassis, I have taken your advice about the electrofrog Y points and designed a small 915 x 500 mm layout that uses only them. There is not a straight bit of track anywhere, with curves varying from 14 cm radius up to about 40 cm on a longer side of the board. My experiments with the insulfrog points and tight curves on a small bit of board showed that the Kato chassis will happily run round 10 cm radius curves, and I don't anticipate affording any of the expensive ready to run models that need larger radii.