Kato 4 wheel chassis and Peco insulfrog points

[Chester 009]

I have a few small cast resin 009 loco bodies running on the Kato 4 wheel chassis, and they run perfectly through electrofrog points. However, these points are too large for the small layout I want to build and I am considering the much small points that are only available as insulfrog. Is anybody here currently using the 4 wheel chassis with insulfrog points, and if so do they run smoothly through them?

I'm a new member and this is my first post here - I have looked through older posts and cannot see a query like this.

[Graeme Dunbar]

The wheelbase of the Kato chassis is quite long so they should run through reasonably well. I've used Insulfrog points on an N gauge layout with short wheelbase locos. Some of Kato's own turnouts have insulated frogs and small locos are probably more likely to be run on compact layouts, especially as the chassis are from their 'Pocket Line' range. I doubt they would design chassis that would not run on their own track. That might be one reason the wheelbase is so long for such small models.

Live frog points will be more reliable but I do not think there is an absolute 'will they - won't they' divide. They may be less reliable if the loco is run through very slowly or stopped on the frog but taken at a reasonable speed they should be satisfactory.

There are several variables so I think it is hard to give a definitive answer.

Weighting the loco suitably may help. The newer version of the Kato chassis may be more reliable than the old one, having a flywheel (so I understand). Performance might be improved by looking very carefully to see if the wheels rise up or drop down as they go through the from as this will rock the chassis and lift another wheel. Fine-tuning the flangeway depth might help.

[Chester 009]

Thank you for the advice.

All the models use Kato chassis purchased in the last 6 months and are the current version, and all the bodies have had weight added since my experiments showed that this increased hauling power. One potential body kit purchase was abandoned after the seller confirmed that the kit had no cavity in which weight could be added. Some sellers always allow for weight to be added, and some appear to not even consider it, which is strange since the Kato chasses is made for an n-gauge tram model that presumably isn't expected to pull very much.

I will probably have to buy one insulfrog point and play with it.

[Peter Boulter]

I use insulfrog point for the same reason, the electrofrog version is too big. With the old Kato 103/104 chassis I used to have a lot of problems with locos stalling on insulfrog points especially at low speeds. I've now replaced all the chassis with the new 109/110 version and I find that the flywheel is enough to maintain the loco's movement through the points, unless of course the loco is running really really slow then then there could be a stall.
But generally, no I don't have problems with insulfrog points and the new Kato 109/110 chassis.

[Frank]

I built a small 009 layout for a grandson a year or so ago.  As it was small I used a dead frog set track point.   I built a loco for it using a new Kato chassis (109) and it had no problem with the point at all, it ran beautifully.

I think as well as the flywheel there is a small amount of compensation which helps keep all four wheels on the track, this helps with running through dead frog points as well.

Frank

[Chester 009]

Thank you for all the helpful replies - all my chassis are the 109 version, so I will try a setrack insulfrog point on a small test track. I know that Peco announced an electrofrog 9 inch radius point some years ago, but then appear to have abandoned it. Since points of this radius don't look ridiculous on 009 'industrial' layouts, and such layouts are likely to be populated by short wheelbase locomotives, it must be time for Peco to reconsider a modern electrofrog/unifrog version of the 9 inch radius point.

[B.Meldon]

Peco used to make 9-inch electrofrog 009 points in the late 1970's and if you look long enough they do sometimes come up for sale. 009 Society sales has been the best place for these over the years. Production stopped in early 1980 as the masters (ie moulds) had worn out.

One problem Peco would have with making a 009 9-inch electroifrog point is that it would use rails that are unique to the 009 point and would have to be especially made for the 009 point only. All the other 009 points that are in production use rails that are also used in Peco's N gauge point range. The N gauge points outsell 009 points by some margin, so having to make rails just for the 009 point may not be cost effective.
In addition over the years Peco have no diubt experienced many users of electrofrog points having difficulty with the wiring, short circuits etc.. The entire idea behind the 'set track' range it to make it easy so having electrofrog point in that range would not be ideal.

From what I understand Peco did look in to producing a 'unifrog' version of the 9 inch 009 point, but these would still have a small dead plastic section, that would still casue issues with locos stalling at slow speeds and again the rails would be unique.

[MickT]

Thanks Brian, that is interesting but also raises the obvious question of: why do the 009 points require different types of rail to the standard N gauge ones particularly as (at least until recently and the 009 RTR revolution) a very large proportion of 009 locos and stock run on N gauge wheelsets?

Mick

[B.Meldon]

Thanks Brian, that is interesting but also raises the obvious question of: why do the 009 points require different types of rail to the standard N gauge ones particularly as (at least until recently and the 009 RTR revolution) a very large proportion of 009 locos and stock run on N gauge wheelsets?

Mick

As far as I know the 12 inch and 18 inch Y and mainline 009 points do have the same rails as the Peco N gauge electriofrog points.
I think that the 9 inch dead frog set track 009 points also use the same rails as the 9 inch dead frog N gauge set track points.


However, Peco have never made a 9 inch N gauge electrofrog point.  The only 9 inch electrofrog point was the 009 point of over 40 years ago.

[Chester 009]

Before buying a Setrack point to test with my Kato 109 chassis models, I have just tried insulating 1 cm of a piece of track with some masking tape, and running one of my models over it. At a very slow crawl there was sometimes a very slight hesitation (without stopping), but otherwise no problems. The chassis appears to allow some vertical movement of the wheels, which I assume must help keep contact with the rails.

I have just been to the Peco website (to get an idea of the size of the dead frog on the points) and found another problem: they no longer list the Setrack points as separate items, but only as part of 'starter sets'. I hope this is not permanent, and just a temporary situation.

[cp.409067]

*
ST-405 (right hand) - https://peco-uk.com/products/setrack-turnout-right-hand

- and ST-406 (left hand) - https://peco-uk.com/products/setrack-turnout-left-hand

- are currently listed as separate items on the Peco web-site.


CP

[Chester 009]

Thank you for the links - I had used the menu and search options and did not find these pages.

[B.Meldon]

I never use deadfrog points.
It is just my opinion and also my experience over the years, and others may not agree but I have found that any deadfrog points on a 009 layout will give issues with stalling at slow speeds.
It is difficult enough to get good running in 009 at slow speeds, but to deliberately add in a section of plastic rail will only make things worse.
Regarding the Kato chassis, they may work ok in deadfrog points when new, but as with all chassis as they are used and start to wear the chances of one wheel lifting off the track momentarily will increase somewhat and with it the chances of stalling in the deadfrog points at slow speed.
In short I think it is a bad idea to spend a lot of time and money building a 009-layout using deadfrog points.
The 18-inch radius 009 electrofrog Y point is only 24mm longer than the set track point. Re-designing you track plan to incorporate these along with the 12-inch radius 009 electrofrog points that are 38mm longer should be possible. Even if this involves some simplification of the track plan, I am sure that in the long run this will prove a far better way forward than using the dead frog points.
The exit angle of all the 009 points is the same.

[Chester 009]

I have ordered one setrack point to experiment with before finalising a track plan. My problem is that since I will probably have to work with 90x60 cm, even the extra 38mm of an electrofrog point make a great different if I want to use two of them at either end of a passing loop at a small station. I will look more closely at the electrofrog Y points. The free Anyrail software I use make 'what if' ideas very easy to try, and proved very accurate when I had a very small OO gauge 'shunting plank' layout that has been abandoned in favour of 009 because I really want a loop so that I can relax and watch the trains go round.

[Graeme Dunbar]

What length train do you want to hold in the passing loop (at the risk of turning this into a layout design discussion)?  :D