"High Water" NG signalling

[Dave Cooper]

Just as a guide, the era is end of steam /beginning of diesel (1950's ish ?).

Only two locos in use at present - 1 steam (0-6-0) and 1 diesel shunter. The station is 'split-level and shared' with the SG line. The NG traffic taking the upper level, and having it's own platform...

Traffic is light with a morning /evening passenger train (must get some coaches !). Goods traffic comes from the fiddle yard and from the canal - via a rope-worked incline. Goods has to be carefully managed as there is only one siding, although the station road is sometimes used during busy periods. There is side access to the siding via the wagon turntable.   

Ideally, I would like signalling to be simple yet comprehensive (I must admit though that planning hasn't got much further than a station starter at present).

All ideas welcome,
Dave

[Hobby]

Preserved railways tend to be more comprehensively signalled than the same layout on a commercial railway due to the availability of enthusiastic volunteers.

I'd have said "over signalled" rather than comprehensively. For me it spoils the whole concept of narrow gauge in GB. If i wanted to see full signalling I can go to Worcester Shrub Hill, if I go to a British NG line I don't want my view impeded by lots of signal posts, rodding, wiring, etc. It's not Clapham Junction, it's a quiet rural narrow gauge line, it doesn't need all those damn signals!

[Dave Cooper]

Interesting point Blair.

I'm leaning towards the 'minimalist' approach too... perhaps a station starter on a post not much higher than cab level.

For the goods siding, either a ground signal (eg rotary disc type) and /or a 'man-with-a-flag' a bit like Ted Polet's little chap...

Regards,
Dave

[Peter Boulter]

One thing I've noticed about signals is that on NG railways, they're there but not so obvious as they are on SG Railways. So on my layout I've gone for a very minimalist approach with disk & bar signals only at the converging side of junctions.

[Hobby]

It rather depends on the prototype and sometimes what is needed to safely control movements. At one extreme you have the Welshpool where a starter signal is all that is deemed necessary, together with a fixed distant and stop signal to control entry into the two terminus stations. Contrast that with the FR/WHR station at Portmadog or the South Tynedale where much more complicated signalling is required as the line in one direction has a major "interface" with a main road.

Most NG even in preservation guise don't tend to use ground/shunting signals, though, most shunting being done with the verbals understanding between the driver, guard and signaller without any need for fixed signals. Sometimes, when a shunt is likely to take the train beyond the station limits and fixed signal may be used to authorise the move, though it's quite rare.

Personally, if I was to use fixed signals I'd stick to the basics, a distant and stop to protect the entrance to the station and starter(s) for departure. One other thing, and something which I think the South Tynedale got right, use smaller signals and not full sized ones! I believe they are ex post mounted shunting signals! I suppose if you couldn't get any in model form you could use TT or N big 'uns! ;)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QzSrtiP-VHOnyp131q14RJYuIAW2q8AkoItjy2EH0Vq9d_sOfVSyXStSU78SbdtvGeRTPyvyyQK2SyLz8zyhP0F8xmvrMUgBTajDsXmASVC-iZZkiBxiaYX6pWxo6TiugnPkmyhU0iRIc1JGbytwF6qpEgGfBitLnC7h8jAnCNZJkX-NOYRCrUP5BnqMs8FiqXTrBip3tDgSKQc

[Graeme Dunbar]

I found the book "Signalling in the age of steam" by Michael Vanns very useful.
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Signalling_in_the_Age_of_Steam.html?id=D-ifpwAACAAJ&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y

I'm not sure if it was in that book where it was put that railway signals can be thought to work the opposite way round to traffic lights. Traffic lights tell drivers to stop whereas railway signals indicate whether the way ahead is clear and it is safe to proceed, at least in the British block way of operation. On standard gauge single line working, tokens were sometimes used. I remember seeing the token being passed, in its leather pouch, on the Aberdeen to Inverness line. I think they changed to electric wireless tokens sometime around 2014.

I don't know if NG railways used token operation. Anyone know?

It is pure guesswork on my part, but I can imagine an arrangement with a mechanical token machine at an unattended passing loop where trains could only pass if the crew were were able to insert the appropriate token into a lock to allow them to change the points to exit the loop and proceed.

[Peter Boulter]

The F&WHR use tokens (electric train staff) and so I suspect do most other NG railways.

[Dave Cooper]

Sadly Blair - got an "error 403" for your link. Something to do with permissions ?

Thanks to all for the very useful views and information on full-size NG practice. I think I've seen/ridden on most now except the Tal-y-llyn which is next on the list when I'm allowed to visit Wales that is....(as a Swansea boy, I strongly object to the government excluding me !!!).   

Regards,
Dave

[Hobby]

The F&WHR use tokens (electric train staff) and so I suspect do most other NG railways.

Many use radios to control movements which is the modern equivalent of  telephone control. Also many use one engine in steam!!

For that photo just do a Google image search for South Tynedale Station and you will see an image of the signals.