"High Water" NG signalling

[Dave Cooper]

Hi All

For the standard gauge part of "High Water", I've made a 'bog-standard' Ratio semaphore signal to use as a station starter. This seems to be in keeping with prototype practice (as far as I can see anyway).

However, for the NG line (009) I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do - if anything at all ? Coming up the grade from the fiddle yard, the line crosses a truss bridge, where it divides into a station approach and a goods siding. There is a dedicated platform at the station and the goods siding is also served by a separate rope-worked incline.

Does the NG line 'need' a grading post (not strictly signalling I know) and anything 'proper' signal-wise ? There will probably be a wagon turntable intersecting the goods siding at some future point...(ground signal maybe ?).

Thanks for any help,
Dave   

[andy1878]

IMHO this depends on the Rules of your railway.
No apparent signalling can be just as valid as a major full-blown interlocking.
I would suggest as a minimum safety system One Engine in Steam (OES) would be implemented. I.e. one train is in a section at a time.
Drivers approaching would need to have an appropriate speed. So maybe a fixed distant. A home signal some way out side of the station limits that would hold incoming traffic whist shunting is occurring with in the station is a possibility. Some kind of route indication MAYBE provided.
Departing trains should be in possession of the authority to proceed (staff, ticket, token,whatever) a starter signal maybe appropriate.

How you model this is your choice.

Grade indications are optional, if your railway is using regular drivers little notice would be taken of them. When it comes to route learning they play an important role.

If you were to be modelling a prototype you would follow it's rules.

Andy

[Dave Cooper]

Hi Andy - thanks for the reply.

As the layout is DC based (and fictitious), I'm planning to use platform /siding 'dead-ends' where a loco can be held whilst another is brought up to take a train out. The main reason being lack of space for run-round loops etc. Is this consistent with block /section operation ? Perhaps a man with a flag would do this on an NG line...I think I've seen something similar on the Tal-y-Llyn ?

I'm not too bothered about following prototype practice exactly, but, it would be nice to introduce a 'correct flavour' here and there. The distance from the fiddle yard to the station is quite short, so, I'm not sure about a fixed 'Distant', however, a station starter sounds good. Also, I think a grade post would add atmosphere (about 1 in 53 in my case).

Any thoughts on mechanical ground signals - I'm think here of a possible wagon turntable /siding conflict, or, is this where a fixed distant, set "on", would give sufficient warning ?

One final point, what about signal post height in 4mm scale ? Surely less than for standard gauge, but just above cab height maybe for 009 ?
Dave   

[Tom Haythornthwaite]

I will be following this thread keenly.

Apart from deciding about rules and procedures, have you got a design or found a kit or something for the ground signal?  I'm going to want some.

[Dave Cooper]

Hi Tom - nothing definite at the moment...

One idea is to have a white disc with a red bar across it. The red bar would be horizontal ("Stop") when the wagon turntable is 'against' the main siding, and "Off" - bar at 45 degrees when the siding is clear. (Sort of mimicking a conventional semaphore signal).

Another thought was to site the disc /ground signal near the w/turntable so that it drives the disc round via nylon spur /crown-wheel gears. I believe you can get a selection of these from China at quite low cost : quarter turn of the t/table rotates the disc through one-eighth and back again. Haven't fully thought this one through yet as I'm still working out mechanical linkages for the points !

Will keep you posted if I find a kit, or, some other suitable starting point.
Dave 

[andy1878]

Hi
I think a working ground signal protecting the turntable would be a neat idea. Especially if it worked with the table. If modern day, it could be coloured light. Small LEDs?

Shunting in the station limits is out side of the block section, so yes a flag signal could be used. An animated figure out of a (signal box?) window or door? Have a search for Ted Polets hand signaller at Dunalistair.

Craigcorrie & Dunalistair Railway
www.009dutch.nl

[Dave Cooper]

Thanks for the further info' /link Andy. I was looking at Ted's Youtube footage yesterday but didn't see any hand-signalling. I'll study more closely next time !

Some further thoughts on the ground signal idea : At the base of the turntable (possibly below baseboard level), is attached a 'crownwheel' gear with the teeth pointing downwards. This then drives a spur gear and shaft to link to the signal disc. At the disc a further spur gear (or two), would rotate it at half speed (2:1 gearing). Short horizontal /vertical shaft supports may be necessary to make this work. Piano wire running in plastic blocks should suffice as there should be very little friction.

Coloured 'window' arcs could be cut into the disc if you want LEDs to shine through.   

[andy1878]

Hi
When suggesting LEDs I was more thinking of a solid state solution.

The Flagman at Dunalistair.

Took me a while to track him down (pun intended). Ted Polet describes him in the thread     
Reconstruction work at Dunalistair http://www.009society.com/forum/index.php?topic=1074.msg6227#msg6227 page 5, scroll right through the page, he meets with an accident!
.
Andy

[Dave Cooper]

I think either LED solution would work, probably dependant on the period being modelled ?

Signal /flagman is very cool ! Haven't read the whole thread yet but looks like there's a lot of good learning there...
Dave

[clayliner]

Signal post height: whatever is required, I imagine, to ensure the signal will be as clearly visible as possible to an oncoming train. I guess that means high enough off the ground to be clear of foliage, stray animals, etc. and to be seen over the crest of an incline, but not higher than is necessary as the taller it is the more liable to blow over and the more support (stay wires, etc) would be needed. A low primary arm with a very tall repeater arm would be fun but probably not appropriate on an n-g line! I imagine sighting boards, behind the arm, while fun to make might also be rare on such lines (though I'm sure someone will be able to come up with a prototype example somewhere).

In any case it's probably best to avoid any 'standard' height unless it's a very smart quasi-mainline sort of railway - most narrow gauge items tended to be one-offs tailored to suit the precise local requirements (and probably made out of redundant scrap items like old rail and timbers, rather than fancy lattice-work, to save cash).

David.

[Dave Cooper]

Hi David - yes, mine's definitely a budget job although, I was initially thinking of a cut-down standard gauge one as there are a few 'spares' on another part of the layout.

I take the point about being visible just cresting the incline - will have to think about the best sighting for this as there is a truss bridge immediately afterward. What's your view on linking it to a nearby point ? Just at the top of the grade, the line divides into NG platform and siding roads...I wonder if a dual-arm (junction ?) signal would be appropriate - indications dependent on point setting perhaps. The point will be operated by a mechanical bell-crank, so, a link to a nearby signal set-up should also be possible.
Dave

[clayliner]

I'm certainly no signalling expert, but if you're going to signal trains into the station area then maybe you also need to think about signalling movements in the opposite direction, e.g. a starting signal for the platform road and maybe ground signals or similar for the sidings. (This could get complicated - which may or may not appeal, depending on how much you like signals!)

David.

[Dave Cooper]

Yes, in fact we discussed station starters and ground signals earlier in the thread - all good ideas....I think I will be starting with something simple and then slowly progress to something automated.

This will probably be a simple ground signal coupled to the wagon turntable. I quite like the idea of a link between signal and point as well (less for me to remember !). The station starter will be manual. All the 'linked' signals will have some form of mechanical coupling - at least, that's the plan.
Dave
   

[FSKeith]

I'm a little(!) late to this topic but I hope the following comments will be useful (and hopefully not too confusing!)

The main considerations for the signalling will depend on the traffic level expected, the supposed opening date of your railway, the supposed current date of your layout and whether you are depicting a preserved railway or not.

The earlier the date of your layout's opening the more likely the simpler the signalling will be; unless traffic levels (like on the Ffestiniog Railway) increase requiring the signalling to be updated.

Until the 1896 Light Railways Act all passenger carrying were treated the same so far as signalling was concerned.

Light Railways (from 1896) had simplified signalling, usually without subsidiary or ground signals. Devils Bridge sometimes had three trains in the station at one time but the only signalling was an Home Signal, that applied to the arrival road and a starting signal that applied to the departure road.
A train would arrive at the arrival road, the loco then ran round and then shunted its train to the departure road leaving the arrival road free for the next arrival.
Trains from the former goods siding were apparently hand signalled away.

If the line was worked with one engine in steam (or two coupled together) only the home signal was required, to protect the station, possession of the token (staff or tablet) was the Drivers authority to proceed.
When more than one engine in steam then the starting signal was also required.

The height of signals depended on the Driver's view of the signal and home signal were usually taller than the starting signal. With light railways, if the home signal could be seen for at least one quarter of a mile the a distant signal was not required.

If the points and signals were not worked from a central point then the points in the running line would be locked in the correct position for the safety of the train, usually by padlock, with a key on the token/staff/tablet.
The area of the railway in the station limits would be under the control of the Station Master and (referring to the last post) the wagon turntable would be unlikely to have any form of associated signalling. If the wagon turntable is in the running line then it would be locked in the correct position until released by the token.

Preserved railways tend to be more comprehensively signalled than the same layout on a commercial railway due to the availability of enthusiastic volunteers.

[Hobby]

Preserved railways tend to be more comprehensively signalled than the same layout on a commercial railway due to the availability of enthusiastic volunteers.

And plenty of secondhand equipment!