Problem with locos stalling on points with frog juicer

[Max Winter]

Hello. Newbie in need of advice. Have just set up my first test layout, a simple 2m x 1m oval with a passing loop built in at one end. I have used Peco Mainline 009 track and 2 of their 009 SL-E496 live frog points to create the passing loop. At the suggestion of my local shop I have installed 2 Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrogs ("frog juicers") as per their enclosed instructions. Both Peco points have had the wires cut where indicated and insulated joiners have been fitted on the 2 rails ends that form the "frog". The juicers have been wired in as per their instructions and extra power feeds have been soldered in from the main line to bridge the insulated rails and provide power to each of the 2 isolated rails in the loop, 1 on each path where the rail is isolated at the frog. Care has been taken to make sure all the polarities match and nothing appears to be able to create a short. I am running DC to start with the plan to switch to DCC in the near future once I have built up some experience. I am told by the shop the Gaugemaster product can be used for both DC & DCC operations without any further wiring alteration.

Problem - Both my locos, a Bachmann Baldwin and a new 2nd issue Heljan L&B Manning Wardle, both stall in the straight ahead portion of the points when entering and exiting the loop, needing a short push to get them moving on before stalling again at points at the exit of the loop. Again a short push and they are off and running till they encounter the start of the loop again after a full circuit. However, they both pass reliably through the points without hesitation when entering and exiting the curved turnout part of the loop. I am perplexed - what obvious goof have I made. Odd thing - the first time I ran a loco on the layout, the Baldwin, the stalling was only when the loco passed into the curved turnout section, then after a couple of initial passes it has switched and settled into the mode of stalling described on the other route. All a bit odd. Can anybody help me ?

[duttonbay]

Is the stall happening on the point blade section, between the blade and the frog? If so it's possibly due to the point blades only being powered by contact with the stock rail When the loco stalls, if you get a toothpick or similar and push the point blade onto the stock rail and the loco begins to move again then that's likely the culprit.

[andy1878]

Hi
Can I check some understanding.
You say you are starting on DC and moving on to DCC. What is the power supply that you are using?

If you are applying DC, I suspect the gaugemaster thing wont do very much and would possibly result in the symptoms you describe.

Andy

[Hobby]

Yes that's what I was thinking as well, Andy. It's sold for DCC use and I've never heard of it for DC use? This thread mentions similar problems but I think he's using DCC:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117230-gaugemaster-dcc80-frog-juicer/

[Max Winter]

The power supply is a DC Gaugemaster Combi Andy. I am running DC only at the moment. I have a Piko Smartcontrol Light that I will migrate to in good time. I have no intention to switch straight to DCC and fit the decoders I already have in hand for the 2 locos. I want to retain as full a functionality on any future layout so locos not suitable for DCC conversion can be run with a DC controller (with the DCC switched out).

Both locos stall when they encounter the frog, from either direction on both sets of points in the loop but only from the path that has the straight approach. So I don't think the toothpick trick will apply here Duttonbay. Both locos pass reliably, in both directions, on the curved path only on both points. Note - on the first couple of passes, when I energised the layout for the first time, the stalling occured on the curved path, not the straight one and then it switched and settled on the straight path issue we have now. Weird.

Coincidently, when I bought the controller and frog juicers the Gaugemaster rep' was in the shop and I asked him to confirm that these products would work satisfactorily with each other and that I could migrate to DCC without any changes to the layout's wiring in the future. He said they would. I trust the railway shop owners too as I have dealt with them for some 15 years and their focus is on "top end" N gauge and HO, both DC and DCC. They have a busy workshop, for what it's worth.

Thank you "Hobby", I have looked at the RM web link and it only seems to deal with DCC issues. There is rather a lot of it to take in and is rather confusing to a novice like myself. I'm not up to speed on a lot of terminology. I've been spoilt for the past 15 years by the, to me, genuine "plug and play" nature of a DC layout in the garden where I also run live steam and battery power. This all seems so over complicated - just to get started.  :)

[duttonbay]

Both locos stall when they encounter the frog, from either direction on both sets of points in the loop but only from the path that has the straight approach. So I don't think the toothpick trick will apply here Duttonbay.

Fair enough. So the stall happens when the first wheel reaches the frog, in either direction?

This all seems so over complicated - just to get started.  :)

I think so too. Can't understand the need for these devices when a switch on the point machine will do the job.

[Hobby]

The point I was making is that it's sold for a layout which uses DCC, not DC. Nowhere in their instructions or blurb do they mention DC. I assume from that it is not designed to work on DC, BTW they do another switch for use with DC which works the same way as the Peco Microswitch.

I could well be wrong and TBH I think the best way for you is to speak to Gaugemaster direct either by phone or email and ask them whether it will work with DC. I always take what a shop says to you with a pinch of salt, there are very few modellers around who know everything about DCC/DC and the owner of a shop is unlikely to be one of them!

[Alan Feldon]

Its always a good idea to have nearby a 12v tester .The type which is a screwdriver with a lead and crocodile clip .You can test all parts of the point with this to see if current is getting through .

[Max Winter]

Nowhere in their instructions or blurb do they mention DC. I assume from that it is not designed to work on DC, BTW they do another switch for use with DC which works the same way as the Peco Microswitch.

I noticed that on the instructions, which is why I queried it myself and asked the question twice - once to the shop owner when he sold them to me even though I told him I intended to run DC to start with, although I has already bought the Piko DCC set up there, and again to the rep when I went in for a DC controller (as I had decided not to risk buying a 2nd hand one). Looks like a trip back to the shop will be in order to sort this out :(

The locos pass through both ways, dependent on the route selected, or stop as soon as leading wheels/pick up meets the frog. This suggest that the polarity on the frog is not switching and is stuck in one configuration only. Have not used my multimeter (an essential tool in the garden) except to test initially that a voltage is running through the track. But how/why did it switch which route to "short" after the very first two passes from one route to the other and get stuck on that alone. Who ever said "Electrofrogs" make things simpler  ;D Only ever used insulated ones in the garden and that is nice and simple. Even those into DCC use them.

[andy1878]

Hi
I think we have established two things.
a) the DCC08 doesn't help on DC.
b) the turnout doesn't want to play.

So. Back basics. The Peco turn out is notorious for not maintaining electrical integrity. I have had them fail on first testing and also work for a very long time. To mitigate against this it it is fairly standard practice to supplement the inbuilt switching action with an external arrangement. The 'frog juicer' and the peco switch are two examples. Simple switching is good for DC and DCC, 'Frog juicer' types are for DCC. Without a secondary switching system the results produced are often intermittent and confusing not to mention down-heartening.

To wire a simple switch use a Single pole double throw type (SPDT). The common pole goes to the frog and the other two go to the appropriate rail, you then operate this switch in sympathy with the point blades.

Wiring for the Frog juicer type is pretty much the same, but they work by detecting the fault current when a short occurs and (very rapidly) switching the polarity.

Each method has its merits and distractions, there isn't necessarily a single, right answer.

I prefer the simple switch approach:
a) its usually cheaper.
b) I like to maintain electrical integrity. 

This is not to say 'frog juicer' types don't have their place.

I think you need to sort out the switching first, I suspect your stall problems will disappear once you have that sorted.

I suggest you take out the DCC08 and experiment without it. Use a wire from the frog to touch the running rails one at a time (to simulate a switch) and observe what happens.

HTH

Post again with how you get on.

Andy

[Hobby]

Max, the "frog" doesn't get "stuck" in one polarity, that's impossible as on an unwired point straight from the box. All that transfers the power is the blades, same as your insulated ones.

As Andy says remove it and see what happens.

If you do that you will be relying on the point blades only to switch the power. Whilst it's not 100% reliable if the rails are clean it should work, then you will see one way or the other. As Alan says a simple circuit tester is useful as well when testing wiring...

(Ah well, off to fitting a Peco microswitch to my point motors this morning as mine are playing up as well!)

[Max Winter]

Max, the "frog" doesn't get "stuck" in one polarity, that's impossible as on an unwired point straight from the box. All that transfers the power is the blades, same as your insulated ones.

As the frog is isolated from the blades, apart from the DCC80, with the wires cut between the blades and frog as per Peco instructions and with insulators fitted at the other end then it follows that the frog without the DCC80 would be dead so something else is influencing it - the DCC80 perhaps which is the only item that connects the rails to the frog ? The stall occurs when the loco advances (consistently on one route only and on both sets of points identically) and meets the frog from either direction. Therefore the frog with the DCC80 has a fixed polarity that only suits one route and not the other. Something is fixing the polarity of the frog.

Andy's suggestion that an SPDT switch should be substituted is a logical one. Just to test my understanding - The DCC80 is really just an automated SPDT switch made to take advantage of the DCC operating environment ? So, I'll get the multimeter out see what polarity is where and then disconnect both DCC 80's and see what happens when you just join each wire already attached the toe of the point in turn to the common feed from the frog and see what circuits are connected.

I have to say all the comments I am noting here and elsewhere of points out of the box being unusable of failing unexpectedly in use is giving me the idea of junking this whole enterprise and sticking with the garden railway. Never mind the stories of both the locos I have bought proving unreliable in the short and medium term by some. If I can lay down a track in an outdoor environment with none of the propriety track components failing after 15 years exposure to the year round elements and I can't get beyond step one here without a lot of faff and duff information from retailers (assuming they can be bothered), then what's the point. Rant over, sorry about that.

[B.Meldon]

In this case I just do not see the reason to use one of these frog juicers?
Just fit a frog polrity switch that is attached to the tie bar so it is mechanicly switched with the point.
It is simple and will work with both DC and DCC opperation.

Brian Meldon

[Max Winter]

Just spoken to the very nice man (vnm) at Gaugemaster's technical department. He confirms that the DCC80 will not work in a DC environment. He also confirms that the phenomenon I am experiencing of having one path through the point open and the other causing a stall is down to the DCC80 "fixing" the polarity in the frog(s) as there is insufficient (say 6v) voltage to cause the DCC80 to switch the polarity (as it needs "see" a constant 14v to do this). The initial switching of the polarity on the frog after a couple of passes of a loco when the layout was first energised was in all probability caused by a power spike that meant the DCC80's could do their stuff on that one occasion.

So, an SPDT switch on each point seems to be the way to go as a stop gap for now, and a refund for the 2 DCC80's as they can never provide a solution to my expressed needs. I'll still give the multimeter a go just to satisfy my curiosity (and get some practice in). Long term there is a problem as there may be no simple solution to a fully functional layout that can be run for either DCC or DC operation, although the vnm did offer some hope and recommended I speak to the shop owner (who provided the duff information in the first place on 3 separate occasions) as he offers a wider product range in this area than Gaugemaster. Ironic Eh ?

This and the point I made earlier - If things are really so unreliable and unpredictable at this scale then really have I chosen the right branch of the hobby to operate indoors ?  I loved the detail and functionality of the Baldwin in its full blown DCC guise and saw it as a logical extension of my 16 mm scale habit - I could concentrate of lines/locos/liveries that did not feature in my 16 mm operation. However, what I see now is a very confused and underdeveloped products and paths to grow that seem more troublesome than they are worth. I'm a bit spoilt by my "plug and play" garden railway I'm afraid to say. Then again I may get to embrace an love this scale as the rest of you do.

Edit - Brian you posted as I was writing this. Thank you very useful information. I will pursue this when I pop into my local shop tomorrow.

[B.Meldon]

This and the point I made earlier - If things are really so unreliable and unpredictable at this scale then really have I chosen the right branch of the hobby to operate indoors ?  I loved the detail and functionality of the Baldwin in its full blown DCC guise and saw it as a logical extension of my 16 mm scale habit - I could concentrate of lines/locos/liveries that did not feature in my 16 mm operation. However, what I see now is a very confused and underdeveloped products and paths to grow that seem more troublesome than they are worth. I'm a bit spoilt by my "plug and play" garden railway I'm afraid to say. Then again I may get to embrace an love this scale as the rest of you do.

The trick with 009 is that the track has to be laid perfectly with no kinks at rail joints, dips or steps in the rails.
This is far more critical with 009 than it is with 16.5mm gauge.
I fit frog polarity switches to every point for reliability and as mentioned this can be done with both DC and DCC.

You have a choice of keeping all the track and loco wheels cleaned regularly or using graphite, rail zip or some other substance on the rails, but these will reduce the haulage capabilities of your locos, so it is not a good idea if you have any layouts with grades.
In general, the lighter weight the loco the quicker its wheels will get dirty, and 009 locos are a lot lighter than those of larger scales.

Another factor is the couplings, again these have to be spot on in terms of adjustment and sadly this is not the case even with ready to run items. Each manufacture will be different and there are even examples of differences within one manufactures range.

The other problem that many new to 009 come across is making layouts with curves that are too tight, often resulting in problems with couplings locking.

It is not that hard to get all the above correct from the start and if you do 009 can be very reliable.

Do you have a local society group in your area, if so I recomend you try and go along to a meeting. I will help you a lot.

Brian Meldon