A Gentleman's Light Sporting Design... 4-4-2T style

[Andy_Elms]

Hey guys.

Back in August over a Beer-and-Hamilton-Ellis evening with Bro in Law, I came up with the germ of an idea for a "Colonial" Big-Cab-Dome-And-Stack-But-Long-Thin-Boiler Beyer, Peacock based OO9 loco, similar to the LSWR Adams "0415" 4-4-2T engines that used to work the Lyme Regis branch (and before that, were used on Suburban services to the leafy Surrey suburbs).
Then, lo and behold, I found on the web a picture of it's antipodean equivalent (though still 4' 8 1/2" gauge) the New South Wales Z13, seen here off of wikipedia:


Anyway, without further ado, here's the rough design:

(yes, my drawing isn't quite up to Invercloy's neatness)

General characteristic are identical ratios of wheel diameter/wheel base to the LSWR 0415, BP-style inclined cylinders and minimalist front footplating and articulation of the front bogie with sideplay and rear axle with radial movement (although modelling these may be a bit of a bind). Scary thing is how involved the design became - almost like Method Acting - had to turn down a well tank (and elegant splasher over the driving wheels, sob) as it would have had tiny water capacity.

Components parts are currently (literally) a mixed bag begged, borrowed and bidded of ebay -
chimney, dome and cylinders from some American 0-4-0,
motor chassis, cab front, cab details and sundry plating from a Glyn Valley Tram,
tank and cab sides from the tender cab of "Blanche" (remainder is undergoing Cacklerfication)
11.5mm wheels and front bogie frames from a Minitrix Britannia.

Only downer, as I discussed on the train this evening, is that the market for 2' ish gauge fast, light passenger locos is very small - short of a network of narrow gauge lines springing up over East Anglia. So maybe I'll say its a Beyer Peacock demonstrator, designed to out corner the Single Fairlie without all those difficult steam pipe articulations.

I'll keep you up to date with progress, and as Bro-in-Law says, there's an article in this. Unless it's been done before. Or you're not interested!

[stevefulljames]

Only downer, as I discussed on the train this evening, is that the market for 2' ish gauge fast, light passenger locos is very small - short of a network of narrow gauge lines springing up over East Anglia. So maybe I'll say its a Beyer Peacock demonstrator, designed to out corner the Single Fairlie without all those difficult steam pipe articulations.

Nice idea. It could be for a similar railway to the Cork, Blackrock and Passage which was a 3' gauge commuter line using elegant 2-4-2T locos.

[invercloy]

(yes, my drawing isn't quite up to Invercloy's neatness)

You should see my last layout plan!!!  :o

That certainly looks interesting, i like to see some different locos.  I'd be interested to read more either on here or in the news... which reminds me i must write the article on my balcony coaches Charles Insley prompted me to do at the Tonbridge exhibition in feburary!  :-[

[Andy_Elms]

The Cork and Blackrock 2-4-2Ts were certainly in my mind when I came up with this. 54" wheels on 3' gauge! No wonder they "ran like hares"

Following a rainy evening with the books in the FRs Hostel library, I came up with design stage 1.2



Bigger versions on my Flickr page here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12102090@N02/3056123588/sizes/m/

It's a 2:1 scale drawing on 1mm squares. My old chemistry teacher used to say the ability to draw a perfect circle freehand is a sure sign of madness... All wheels would be spoked, inside framed, but theres only so many hours in a day...

I'd welcome comments on aesthetics- this loco is designed to be good looking first, and capable of haulage second! I'm already pondering on increasing boiler pitch, so the cab height is twice that of the tank height, or whether to use a "Taliesin" style rounded tank tops and FR cab, or more of a BP style cab and stovepipe stack, or to just kitbash a Langley Hunslet WD 4-6-0T...

[garrywhiting]

I think your cab height to tank height ratio of 2:1 is ill advised, it certainly doesn't look right to me, try 2.5 to 1.5, which will give it a more narrow gauge look.

[MickT]

Andy,

Not quite what you are developing here, but you could do a lot worse than have a look at Ted Polet's rather older but similar in concept Beyer Peacock in the Dutch Group website at: http://www.009dutch.nl/ select "1. Dutch Group Website", then "English Version" (unless you are fluent in Dutch....) and then select "Archive" from the menu box on the left, followed by "2002 Locomotives of the C&DR" and scroll to loco number 3 "Maid of the Loch", 4-6-0T Beyer Peacock.

Mick

[duttonbay]

Here's a drawing of a prototype 4-4-2T on 2' gauge - although it's hardly a "Gentleman's Light Sporting Design". It's more a Volkswagen beetle than a Porsche!

http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_rail/qld/jf-hr/cattlecreek/Germany.pdf

This loco was converted from the tender version which ran on the Stannary Hills Tramway:

http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_rail/qld/jf-hr/irvingbank/Borsig.pdf

Neither version would win any beauty contests!

Does anybody here know of any other prototypical 4-4-2 locos on 2' (or thereabouts) gauge?

[Andy_Elms]

Other than that Borsig, in short no!
I expect the lack of adhesion was the thing. Which isn't that suprising. I expect the 2-6-2T was seen as a better arrangement.
Progress on the build, nearly started...

[duttonbay]

I believe the Borsig 4-4-2 was purchased because of the tight curves involved on the Stannary Hills line - the rigid wheelbase is quite short. The loco was the last to operate on the line, being preferred to a new and more powerful Avonside owned by the Irvinebank Tramway when they assumed control of the older line.

We have always thought that this was the quite probably only 4-4-2 on 2' gauge in the world, so I do look for an opportunity to ask the question every now and then.

Anyways, sorry for hijacking this thread - back to the most recent drawing.  The proportions of the boiler and cab make the loco appear to my eye as a "typical" 009 mashup - an N-gauge body with an OO cab - as the boiler is a little small (or low) for the cab. I tend to agree with your thoughts about raising the boiler pitch a smidgeon.

What dimensions do you have for the wheels and boiler diameter, cab and tank height?

[Julian Evison]

Interesting challenge - any other 4-4-2Ts on 2 foot gauge (or similar). I have to say I have drawn a blank while trawling through various reference books. I can find examples of 4-4-0, 2-4-2T and 2-4-4T, but no 4-4-2Ts, or even 4-4-2 tender engines.

Always difficult to prove a negative!

Julian

[Andy_Elms]

Firstly, cheers for comments and advice. It's an interesting exercise this...

Well, after a few hours design while travelling up to the Festiniog last weekend and wracking of some friends brains in the hostel, the following designs emerged:

(3' 4 1/2 " wheels, 3' boiler dia, 6'3" height cab, 3' 9" height tank sides, using GWs suggested ratio of cab:tank of 2.5:1.5) - based on the proprtions of the CB&PR 2-4-2s, ie wheel dia = gauge x 1.5
hmm, boilers  too high, wheels too big, footplate too thick, tank looks a bit too tall.

Although this version 3 doesn't quite seem to be as good looking as the previous version 2:

This uses 2'10" wheels, 3' dia boiler, 6'3" height cab, 3' 1 1/2" high tanks. Boilers too low, tank could be a bit taller, maybe move footplate a touch higher too.

I've already got another design, sort of midway between these two on the go - thinner, higher footplates for a start. Needs drawing up.

What seems to be the issue  is trying to get the cab in what I see as aesthetically pleasing proportion with the tanks, hence boiler smokebox etc means the loco ends up becoming much larger than expected. I think I'll sit down with some photos of W&LLR Earl and Countess to see what ratios BP used there.

In terms of the why the 4-4-2T prototype was limited, I've come to the realisation it's a matter of where you can put a nice big grate. With most 2'-ish locos, this is behind the driving wheels. The exceptions are the South African Lawley 4-4-0, outside frames, relatively narrow boiler, grate fitting between the driving axles on outside frames. Similarly the Tongaat 4-4-0T Bagnalls:
http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/2a/64/2c18_1.JPG
and the Borsig 4-4-2T seemed to have fireboxes above the driving axles.

While all this is going on, I'm having ideas about other projects...

Comments welcome

Andy

[CharlieI]

There's some piccies in the Manning Wardle NG locos book of a 3'6" 4-4-0 and 4-4-2 produced for a railway in New Zealand - the 4-4-2 in particular looks pretty neat and, like all MW locos, rather pretty.

[Andy_Elms]

Following on from advice, searching for broadside views of "The Countess", much head scratching, poring through calculations of ratios and purchasing of parts at NGSW, we now have... another design. Probably will be final, although looks like the 14mm w/b outside frame Farish carriage bogie will have to be replaced with a scratch built inside frame one with shorter w/b.


We're back as a well tank, outside frames, 2'10 1/2" wheels, 5' 9" coupled w/b (from Arnold 0-6-0). next stage is to consider what motor to put in - looks like a Nigel Lawton one will be entirely suitable, although I'm tempted to squeeze a Branchlines Mashima/flywheel set in there.

Time to start thinking of building the thing

Thoughts welcome

Andy

[MickT]

..............., 5' 9" coupled w/b (from Arnold 0-6-0). next stage is to consider what motor to put in - looks like a Nigel Lawton one will be entirely suitable, although I'm tempted to squeeze a Branchlines Mashima/flywheel set in there.

Time to start thinking of building the thing

Thoughts welcome

Andy

Andy,

Good as it is, I'm not sure that a Nigel Lawton motor (and drive system presumably?) will provide enough torque to power this loco properly. Don't forget that his locos are small industrial diesels and are perfect for pulling half a dozen tipper trucks at 5 mph, but might not be up to hauling passenger trains of several bogies at a decent speed! If you are using an Arnold chassis, have you considered keeping the Arnold motor and geartrain in use - they seem to work perfectly well from my own experience and both of my 2-6-0ST+T "heritage pugbashed mogul locos" (see snaps attached for the curious) use the old Arnold 0-6-0 chassis without problems (and the blue one has the distinction of having made it all the way on a heavy passenger service from Dunalistair to Craigcorrie on Ted Polet's C&DR!)

Mick

[david788]

Good as it is, I'm not sure that a Nigel Lawton motor (and drive system presumably?) will provide enough torque to power this loco properly.

I'd totally agree. Although superb where they are essential Nigel's motors need gearing down considerably,and are not really an alternative to a Mashima where that will fit.
If the Arnold motor has failed or is too wide go for a Mashima 1015.