I posted earlier about ordering a Bachmann quarry loco and wanting to build something simple to operate it on.
You have given me some useful tips on modular based boards. May I now ask about points and point control ?
The layout will only have two points ( possibly three) . If I get Peco live frog do I need to do anything electrical about insulation, electrical switches etc ?
Also: what's the best way to understand wire in rod under board control? Are there suppliers ?
This is all to overcome a couple of my old bug bears from 30 years ago: stalling on points and manual control from above.
Thanks
The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.
Quote from: andy1878 on December 01, 2022, 15:46
The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.
Thanks. I will take a look
To cover the basics...
Live frog points will generally give better running than dead frog ones, especially with small 4 wheeled locos.
Relying on the 'press contacts' of point blade on stock rail to get power through the point is not reliable. Most (all?) electrical switches rely on a sliding contact that is partially self cleaning, and to reliably get points to work you'll need to clean between the point blades and stock rails. Fine emery paper folded over so the emery is on the outside, then sliding this into the point blade - stock rail gap will clean the contacts, but for added reliability some sort of frog polarity switching is advisable.
The switching can be done using an accessory switch mounted on the point motor (but note that the Peco one needs careful setting up as the switch throw is about the same as that of the point), an additional microswitch operated by the point actuator (solenoid or servo motor), or a switch mechanically linked to the point tie bar that also operates the point ('Wire in tube").
When it comes to track laying the usual rule is to add isolating rail joiners / gaps to both rails coming out of the point frog, but this will mean that the rail beyond the gap will need to have a track power feed, and that this feed may also need to be switched (on or off) to properly isolate the loco on that length of track.
The "wire in tube" you mention is in essence a way to mechanically link the movement of an electrical switch - generally a slide switch - to that of the point's tie bar and blades. This can be done by a rod in air - traditionally a bicycle wheel spoke but a heavy section rail (code 100 up) will so the job, or a steel wire in a copper or PTFE tube. The wire in tube has the advantage that it will operate around a curve whereas a 'free rod' will only work in a straight line, and whilst I've not used copper tube myself the PTFE system can turn some surprisingly tight curves in the run between switch and point.
It's been a while since I bought any but a name to search for is "slippery sid", and it might also be worth looking into flying model aircraft suppliers who use a similar system to link the servos to the control surfaces. Because the system is fairly shallow I've mounted it on top of the baseboard top with the track laid onto a layer of cork (2-3mm) with 'trenches' cut in the cork for the wire in tube runs.
In essence the wiring side is to take one wire from the point frog to the centre contact of your double pole switch and then wires from one stock rail to one of the 'outer' poles of the switch, so that when the switch is thrown that way current flows from the stock rail, through the switch and then down the wire to the frog and also through the point blade.
Finally, whilst the above pointers will improve running you'll still need to keep on top of keeping the track and wheels clean...
Hope that helps.
Here is an example ocf just how simple wire in tube point control with a two way switch as the leaver and changing the polarity in the point can be:
Quote from: andy1878 on December 01, 2022, 15:46
The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.
I've ordered this. Thanks for the tip and I hope it helps.
From my limited reading, and even more limited understanding, it seems that if I use electro frog points I will have to solder extra wires and add switches, if I go DCC. Is this right or have I got it all wrong??
Have to, no.
But it is advisable, whether using analogue or digital control.
Quote from: Robert Kilby on December 13, 2022, 17:36
From my limited reading, and even more limited understanding, it seems that if I use electro frog points I will have to solder extra wires and add switches, if I go DCC. Is this right or have I got it all wrong??
I would always recommend using frog polarity switches on every point, be that in analogue or DCC. This is because as mentioned in the posts above the electrical switching in the points is unreliable. This will require soldering wires to the rails.
With DCC if you want every section of track powered all the time, for loco sound etc then yes extra wires will be needed.
When using electrofrog points, that again I would strongly recommend, with DCC and every section powered you will also need to fit isolating fishplates to both the frog rails of every point.
With analogue isolating fishplates are not needed on the frog rails for sidings, only for loops and for continuous circuit rails.
In general DCC wiring is simpler to understand, but yes it does require more wires soldered to the rails.
If you intend to ever use DCC it is best to wire the layout for that from the start, but using analogue only, and never wanting the layout to run on DCC requires less wires.
(It should also be noted that with analogue every electrical item on a layout, that is the track, point motors, lights and everything can use the same common return, this vastly reduces the wires needed, but with DCC the two wires for the track can not use a common return and have to remain separate from all other electrical items. It is near impossible to convert an analogue layout wired with full common return to DCC.)
Quote from: B.Meldon on December 14, 2022, 10:41
(It should also be noted that with analogue every electrical item on a layout, that is the track, point motors, lights and everything can use the same common return, this vastly reduces the wires needed, but with DCC the two wires for the track can not use a common return and have to remain separate from all other electrical items. It is near impossible to convert an analogue layout wired with full common return to DCC.)
That is one point of view, of course.
I would keep the track power separate from the accessory power (i.e. everything else) on the baseboard(s)
(That's my point of view for what it's worth... <grin>)
Given all the foregoing, I'm thinking there's a lot be said for radio control ! Not sure about point activation though - might need to tinker with that one...
Dave
Quote from: Dave Cooper on December 16, 2022, 11:03
Given all the foregoing, I'm thinking there's a lot be said for radio control ! Not sure about point activation though - might need to tinker with that one...
Dave
To be honest any of the 'usual' methods (wire in tube, point motor, poke with a finger) would do the job, just that with onboard batteries in the locos there's no need to wire any track up.
But I can't help thinking that fitting a battery, charging socket, switches and speed controller into the average 009 loco is probably harder work (both in terms of finding the space and the fine fiddly work needed to wire everything up in the right way) than running 3 wires from the point to a switch...
There's nothing to prevent you putting in the dropper wires first but not connecting them up until you find you need them. That's more convenient than trying to add the dropper wires at a later stage.....
Quote from: Dave Cooper on December 16, 2022, 11:03
Given all the foregoing, I'm thinking there's a lot be said for radio control ! Not sure about point activation though - might need to tinker with that one...
Dave
I've just come to 009 from OO radio control. Had a lot of trouble with it. Mainly because I bought old/new stock Mainline and Airfix. I figured the cost of conversion, done professionally, would equal the cost of a new OO loco. The idea is great. Practice, for me, was a nightmare. Had an new O Gauge Pannier which worked beautifully. It would seem to be the future, the power is in the loco, not track. Good luck.
Something to bear in mind I think is the sheer range model railway layout situations. Some may have fairly brief lives but pampered by gentle use in heated spare bedrooms while others may outlive a pet dog two, three or even more times over; be rattled about in the back of a car regularly and then be expected to behave perfectly for a weekend's continuous running at exhibitions the length and breadth of the country. (A surprising few outlive their original owners and continue to serve.)
When push comes to shove, for point control there is the Mark I Finger (and that sometimes puts in a show at exhibitions) and for wiring track there are these:
(https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/e/pepl-82.jpg)
https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/peco-pepl-82.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtvSdBhD0ARIsAPf8oNkIuol62UNvCpkysfnaKuXc6r0jsMzZvGbHZnoWlpFnnklgiZDezrkaAsQZEALw_wcB (https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/peco-pepl-82.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtvSdBhD0ARIsAPf8oNkIuol62UNvCpkysfnaKuXc6r0jsMzZvGbHZnoWlpFnnklgiZDezrkaAsQZEALw_wcB)
Reliable operation may mean occasionally squeezing the joiners tight onto the rails with snipe-nose pliers, but in all probability by the time that becomes more than an occasional necessity the layout will be long gone or the maker gained sufficient skill and confidence to make neat permanent soldered joints to the rails in situ that are both almost un-noticeable and do not damage the track.
Something I regret not doing is 'ruining' a lot more track (and kits) when younger. I think that is a great advantage of joining a club. If a new member wants to learn how to solder to track there is almost certain to be a large supply of old rail salvaged from previous layouts and a newcomer could potentially solder up yards of the stuff, soldering droppers, chopping off a couple of inches and trying again until perfect to be let loose on the new club layout.
Thanks
I have a couple of these ready made feeds, and now a soldering iron and stuff...but as yet no points or baseboard to make any real start
I've even got some brass tube ( 1 mm )and piano wire.
Any advice , please, on how to finish the piano wire and the none point end ?
Please don't say " read the handbook"...been waiting for that for quite some time now.
Hopefully next week I will have a loco and a controller
I think people have had fun and shown great ingenuity with the knobs at the 'people' end. I've seen small cabinet handles being used.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4OEAAOSwgQ9V3132/s-l500.jpg)
Quote from: B.Meldon on December 02, 2022, 10:37
Here is an example ocf just how simple wire in tube point control with a two way switch as the leaver and changing the polarity in the point can be:
As can be seen in my post above the 'user' end of the wire can just be wrapped around the toggle on the two way switch.
You should find that the piano wire is hard to bend, but once bent into shape it will stay that way.
If you do not want to use a switch to change the frog polarity, and I recommend you do, you can make the leaver out of a brass strip with a 90 degree twist pivoted on a simple wood screw. This is a photo of a wire-in-tube uncoupling ramp leaver, but it would work with points as well:
Quote from: andy1878 on December 01, 2022, 15:46
The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.
Well
The handbook came in yesterday's post. The first copy i ordered never arrived.
I read some of it last night...I'm sure it will help, but on first reading it left me rather baffled and somewhat down hearted !
Quote from: Robert Kilby on January 22, 2023, 14:21
Quote from: andy1878 on December 01, 2022, 15:46
The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.
Well
The handbook came in yesterday's post. The first copy i ordered never arrived.
I read some of it last night...I'm sure it will help, but on first reading it left me rather baffled and somewhat down hearted !
It all seems a bit alien to start with and the information can be hard to get across in writing. I think this is where having someone go over it face-to-face might help and is the sort of thing where an Area Group could be ideal. It is likely to make a lot more sense seeing in flesh (or plastic). Possibly it is something that could be done in a SIG over Zoom too?
Quote from: Robert Kilby on January 22, 2023, 14:21
I read some of it last night...I'm sure it will help, but on first reading it left me rather baffled and somewhat down hearted !
I am sorry that this has been the outcome - not what is intended! Can you be a bit more specific about what has baffled you and hopefully we can help you.
Graeme's suggestion of asking help from an area group may well help too.
Julian
Robert, there is a SIG for layout design and the members there would be able to talk you through things. You get in touch with Jörg Ehrsam and find out when the next zoom meeting is. If you have any problems getting in touch let me know.
Thanks very much for all the three kind and helpful comments above.
I have been learning Welsh for the last two years, quite hard work for a none linquist, but there was more new vocabulary in the section on points, motors and wiring them than in my last dozen or so lessons!
I have got to take a break for a while but will come back with some specific questions later.
I hope it doesn't put you off but things are not helped by modeller's jargon differing from that used by real permanent way engineers and then multiply by two for the differences either side of the Atlantic. ;D (It's not that bad really.)
Hopefully though not as bamboozling as the Turbo Encabulator:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag)
Hi Robert,
From a fellow learner (Welsh and Model Railways), I make the case for 'tinkering' - low voltage of course, don't mess around with AC mains from the wall !
A simple PP3 type 9 volt battery will let you do a lot of experiments on track, accessories, loco's etc. and it's surprising what you can learn this way. Build a few simple electronic circuits (from a kit perhaps), 'blow up' a few diodes, LED's and a transistor or two and you will soon learn what works and what doesn't....the cost will be minimal, the learning great (and, fun !).
If in doubt....keep it simple /ask for help.
Cheers,
Dave
Quote from: Dave Cooper on January 23, 2023, 10:45
Hi Robert,
From a fellow learner (Welsh and Model Railways), I make the case for 'tinkering' - low voltage of course, don't mess around with AC mains from the wall !
A simple PP3 type 9 volt battery will let you do a lot of experiments on track, accessories, loco's etc. and it's surprising what you can learn this way. Build a few simple electronic circuits (from a kit perhaps), 'blow up' a few diodes, LED's and a transistor or two and you will soon learn what works and what doesn't....the cost will be minimal, the learning great (and, fun !).
If in doubt....keep it simple /ask for help.
Cheers,
Dave
Hmmm. Not sure about much of this ... Other than the wish to keep it simple !
Quote from: Robert Kilby on January 27, 2023, 15:51
Quote from: Dave Cooper on January 23, 2023, 10:45
Hi Robert,
From a fellow learner (Welsh and Model Railways), I make the case for 'tinkering' - low voltage of course, don't mess around with AC mains from the wall !
A simple PP3 type 9 volt battery will let you do a lot of experiments on track, accessories, loco's etc. and it's surprising what you can learn this way. Build a few simple electronic circuits (from a kit perhaps), 'blow up' a few diodes, LED's and a transistor or two and you will soon learn what works and what doesn't....the cost will be minimal, the learning great (and, fun !).
If in doubt....keep it simple /ask for help.
Cheers,
Dave
Hmmm. Not sure about much of this ... Other than the wish to keep it simple !
OK Robert - how about a small battery, switch, bulb and a few wires to make the necessary connections ? That's about as simple as it comes ! (You will also find a low-cost 'Multimeter' invaluable for tracing faults etc. on a model railway....).
Have fun,
Dave
Yes, a multimeter is a very useful addition to the model railway toolbox. Just a day or two ago I traced a short where I thought I'd gapped a rail for an isolating section. It worked for a while but I think there might have been a whisker of metal left where I had not cut though completely and it bridged the gap.
Quote from: GraemeD on January 28, 2023, 11:27
Yes, a multimeter is a very useful addition to the model railway toolbox.
I'd say essential.
At a pinch you can get away with a blub / LED on crocodile clips for voltage presence and add a battery for continuity checking.
A cheap multimeter will set you back a few quid. A really good one many tens and into the hundreds, you dont need an expensive one at this stage of the game.
The one that lives in my model tool box was around £6.00. You'd cough at the current price of my professional one.
Learn to use it @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo8MWr3NuuM - I havent watched this right through.
They can be surprisingly cheap. I have more than one of this type:
https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d03046/multimeter-digital/dp/IN07220?mckv=s_dc|pcrid|426684131405|kword||match||plid||slid||product|IN07220|pgrid|100371162238|ptaid|pla-1751967123517|&CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-SHOPPING-9262013734-100371162238-IN07220&s_kwcid=AL!5616!3!426684131405!!!network}!1751967123517!&gclid=CjwKCAiArNOeBhAHEiwAze_nKPSw9tfzGWkTmPjf72BI0abmflENAxIS0T4QORbSDvO9SajrCZX8GhoCN2MQAvD_BwE (https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d03046/multimeter-digital/dp/IN07220?mckv=s_dc%7Cpcrid%7C426684131405%7Ckword%7C%7Cmatch%7C%7Cplid%7C%7Cslid%7C%7Cproduct%7CIN07220%7Cpgrid%7C100371162238%7Cptaid%7Cpla-1751967123517%7C&CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-SHOPPING-9262013734-100371162238-IN07220&s_kwcid=AL!5616!3!426684131405!!!network%7D!1751967123517!&gclid=CjwKCAiArNOeBhAHEiwAze_nKPSw9tfzGWkTmPjf72BI0abmflENAxIS0T4QORbSDvO9SajrCZX8GhoCN2MQAvD_BwE)
(https://cpc.farnell.com/productimages/standard/en_GB/IN07220-40.jpg)
Even though dirt cheap I trust a trader like CPC/Farnell not to sell absolute rubbish. It is the sort of thing that they would sell for student use and throwing in a toolbox, not serious test bench use. I would not use it for mains though.
The guy at my electronics shop here in Canada showed me their top model - I think it was $2,500.
Quote from: Robert Kilby on January 10, 2023, 11:45
Any advice , please, on how to finish the piano wire and the none point end ?
Many ways, depends on what you want. For Mini slide switches: bend wire at 90deg and poke into hole drilled in slider handle.
Fasten to Door Knob style turnings. Link to a lever frame.
Even bend up at 90 deg and try not to spike your finger on the end, don't ask how I know.
Quote from: GraemeD on January 10, 2023, 13:14
I think people have had fun and shown great ingenuity with the knobs at the 'people' end. I've seen small cabinet handles being used.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4OEAAOSwgQ9V3132/s-l500.jpg)
I am getting a bit closer ( but not very close) to having to settle on this issue. Where would I buy small cabinet handles like this...and how does the wire stay in one ?1
Quote from: Robert Kilby on March 01, 2023, 15:14
I am getting a bit closer ( but not very close) to having to settle on this issue. Where would I buy small cabinet handles like this...and how does the wire stay in one ?
Homebase, B&Q and Screwfix should have them. You are likely to find smaller ones on eBay and Etsy.
For fixing the wire it depends how robust you want them. The simplest would be to drill a hole and Araldite the wire in. For a more positive 'action' I might bore a larger hole and glue some dowel in and have the dowel slide in a longer hole, perhaps even through a couple of pieces of wood like an axle in a toy car might and then I might arrange some sort of limit stops so the plunger cannot move too far. There could even be a keyway or spline to stop the user twisting the knob and the wire attached to it. For attaching the actuating wire to the dowel I might do it the way traditional model aircraft balsa pushrods are made. The wires at the ends of the rod have a right angle bent in them that pokes into a hole through the push rod and the wire runs along the pushrod for a bit and it bound or laced to it and secured with glue, a bit like a traditional Lancashire potato peeler.
Purposed designed ones https://ngtrains.com/shop/product/blue-point-flex-link-clamps-screws/ but he's OoS, you might find them else where.
I recovered as many as I could from an old chest of drawers. The wood went into many things!
For the 'stock' ones from B&Q etc. Araldite should do. I'd start by threading the ends of the coat hanger tp give some bite.
HTH
Here's my solution for the two points on the Himalayan pizza - wooden knobs with the wire fed through and epoxied.
There's a bit of detail in this thought. The knob has the sleeve within it so the wire is easier to glue and, importantly - the operating end of the knob is drilled out far wider so there's no risk of the whole lot getting gummed up when gluing.
Hope this helps?