Points and point control for a beginner

[Robert Kilby]

I posted earlier about ordering a Bachmann quarry loco and wanting to build something simple to operate it on.
You have given me some useful tips on modular based boards. May I now ask about points and point control ?
The layout will only have two points ( possibly three) . If I get Peco live frog do I need to do anything electrical about insulation, electrical switches etc ?
Also: what's the best way to understand wire in rod under board control? Are there suppliers ?
This is all to overcome a couple of my old bug bears from 30 years ago: stalling on points and manual control from above.
Thanks

[andy1878]

The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.

[Robert Kilby]

The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.

Thanks. I will take a look

[JulienW]

To cover the basics...

Live frog points will generally give better running than dead frog ones, especially with small 4 wheeled locos.

Relying on the 'press contacts' of point blade on stock rail to get power through the point is not reliable. Most (all?) electrical switches rely on a sliding contact that is partially self cleaning, and to reliably get points to work you'll need to clean between the point blades and stock rails. Fine emery paper folded over so the emery is on the outside, then sliding this into the point blade - stock rail gap will clean the contacts, but for added reliability some sort of frog polarity switching is advisable.

The switching can be done using an accessory switch mounted on the point motor (but note that the Peco one needs careful setting up as the switch throw is about the same as that of the point), an additional microswitch operated by the point actuator (solenoid or servo motor), or a switch mechanically linked to the point tie bar that also operates the point ('Wire in tube").

When it comes to track laying the usual rule is to add isolating rail joiners / gaps to both rails coming out of the point frog, but this will mean that the rail beyond the gap will need to have a track power feed, and that this feed may also need to be switched (on or off) to properly isolate the loco on that length of track.

The "wire in tube" you mention is in essence a way to mechanically link the movement of an electrical switch - generally a slide switch - to that of the point's tie bar and blades. This can be done by a rod in air - traditionally a bicycle wheel spoke but a heavy section rail (code 100 up) will so the job, or a steel wire in a copper or PTFE tube.  The wire in tube has the advantage that it will operate around a curve whereas a 'free rod' will only work in a straight line, and whilst I've not used copper tube myself the PTFE system can turn some surprisingly tight curves in the run between switch and point.

It's been a while since I bought any but a name to search for is "slippery sid", and it might also be worth looking into flying model aircraft suppliers who use a similar system to link the servos to the control surfaces.  Because the system is fairly shallow I've mounted it on top of the baseboard top with the track laid onto a layer of cork (2-3mm) with 'trenches' cut in the cork for the wire in tube runs.

In essence the wiring side is to take one wire from the point frog to the centre contact of your double pole switch and then wires from one stock rail to one of the 'outer' poles of the switch, so that when the switch is thrown that way current flows from the stock rail, through the switch and then down the wire to the frog and also through the point blade.

Finally, whilst the above pointers will improve running you'll still need to keep on top of keeping the track and wheels clean...

Hope that helps.

[B.Meldon]

Here is an example ocf just how simple wire in tube point control with a two way switch as the leaver and changing the polarity in the point can be:

[Robert Kilby]

The members handbook would be a place good start.
Look In the members shop.

I've ordered this. Thanks for the tip and I hope it helps.

From my limited reading, and even more limited understanding, it seems that if I use electro frog points I will have to solder extra wires and add switches, if I go DCC. Is this right or have I got it all wrong??

[JulienW]

Have to, no.

But it is advisable, whether using analogue or digital control.

[B.Meldon]

From my limited reading, and even more limited understanding, it seems that if I use electro frog points I will have to solder extra wires and add switches, if I go DCC. Is this right or have I got it all wrong??

I would always recommend using frog polarity switches on every point, be that in analogue or DCC. This is because as mentioned in the posts above the electrical switching in the points is unreliable. This will require soldering wires to the rails.

With DCC if you want every section of track powered all the time, for loco sound etc then yes extra wires will be needed.
When using electrofrog points, that again I would strongly recommend, with DCC and every section powered you will also need to fit isolating fishplates to both the frog rails of every point.
With analogue isolating fishplates are not needed on the frog rails for sidings, only for loops and for continuous circuit rails.

In general DCC wiring is simpler to understand, but yes it does require more wires soldered to the rails.

If you intend to ever use DCC it is best to wire the layout for that from the start, but using analogue only, and never wanting the layout to run on DCC requires less wires.

(It should also be noted that with analogue every electrical item on a layout, that is the track, point motors, lights and everything can use the same common return, this vastly reduces the wires needed, but with DCC the two wires for the track can not use a common return and have to remain separate from all other electrical items. It is near impossible to convert an analogue layout wired with full common return to DCC.)

[Hugh Norwood]

(It should also be noted that with analogue every electrical item on a layout, that is the track, point motors, lights and everything can use the same common return, this vastly reduces the wires needed, but with DCC the two wires for the track can not use a common return and have to remain separate from all other electrical items. It is near impossible to convert an analogue layout wired with full common return to DCC.)

That is one point of view, of course.

I would keep the track power separate from the accessory power (i.e. everything else) on the baseboard(s)
(That's my point of view for what it's worth...  <grin>)

[Dave Cooper]

Given all the foregoing, I'm thinking there's a lot be said for radio control ! Not sure about point activation though - might need to tinker with that one...
Dave

[JulienW]

Given all the foregoing, I'm thinking there's a lot be said for radio control ! Not sure about point activation though - might need to tinker with that one...
Dave

To be honest any of the 'usual' methods (wire in tube, point motor, poke with a finger) would do the job, just that with onboard batteries in the locos there's no need to wire any track up.

But I can't help thinking that fitting a battery, charging socket, switches and speed controller into the average 009 loco is probably harder work (both in terms of finding the space and the fine fiddly work needed to wire everything up in the right way) than running 3 wires from the point to a switch...

[Hugh Norwood]

There's nothing to prevent you putting in the dropper wires first but not connecting them up until you find you need them. That's more convenient than trying to add the dropper wires at a later stage.....

[Tom Ellis]

Given all the foregoing, I'm thinking there's a lot be said for radio control ! Not sure about point activation though - might need to tinker with that one...
Dave

I've just come to 009 from OO radio control. Had a lot of trouble with it. Mainly  because I bought old/new stock Mainline and Airfix. I figured the cost of conversion, done professionally, would equal the cost of a new OO loco. The idea is great. Practice, for me, was a nightmare. Had an new O Gauge Pannier which worked beautifully. It would seem to be the future, the power is in the loco, not track. Good luck.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Something to bear in mind I think is the sheer range model railway layout situations. Some may have fairly brief lives but pampered by gentle use in heated spare bedrooms while others may outlive a pet dog two, three or even more times over; be rattled about in the back of a car regularly and then be expected to behave perfectly for a weekend's continuous running at exhibitions the length and breadth of the country. (A surprising few outlive their original owners and continue to serve.)

When push comes to shove, for point control there is the Mark I Finger (and that sometimes puts in a show at exhibitions) and for wiring track there are these:


https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/peco-pepl-82.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtvSdBhD0ARIsAPf8oNkIuol62UNvCpkysfnaKuXc6r0jsMzZvGbHZnoWlpFnnklgiZDezrkaAsQZEALw_wcB

Reliable operation may mean occasionally squeezing the joiners tight onto the rails with snipe-nose pliers, but in all probability by the time that becomes more than an occasional necessity the layout will be long gone or the maker gained sufficient skill and confidence to make neat permanent soldered joints to the rails in situ that are both almost un-noticeable and do not damage the track.

Something I regret not doing is 'ruining' a lot more track (and kits) when younger. I think that is a great advantage of joining a club. If a new member wants to learn how to solder to track there is almost certain to be a large supply of old rail salvaged from previous layouts and a newcomer could potentially solder up yards of the stuff, soldering droppers, chopping off a couple of inches and trying again until perfect to be let loose on the new club layout.

[Robert Kilby]

Thanks
I have a couple of these ready made feeds, and now a soldering iron and stuff...but as yet no points or baseboard to make any real start
I've even got some brass tube ( 1 mm )and piano wire.
Any advice , please, on how to finish the piano wire and the none point end ?
Please don't say " read the handbook"...been waiting for that for quite some time now.
Hopefully next week I will have a loco and a controller