Something that comes up regularly is people using an N (or RTR 009) chassis for another loco, either scratch or kit built. Is it worth the Society approaching manufacturers to see if they could do chassis only runs? I believe that Kato are already thinking about doing it with their forthcoming joint release with Peco, but the Japanese manufacturers already have a history of selling them separately so that's not unexpected and Minitrains have done a few. Could the Society "nudge" say Farish (the 08) and Bachmann (the two 009 040s), even Heljan (for the (2)-6-(2)) for instance? It might be something that's been tried before but perhaps it's worth another gentle nudge with the current growth in 009?
I would certainly be interested in that too
It would be nice, but I suspect it will not happen. It may not be just because the size of the market does not support it but because of the lack of imperative.
One may consider why a manufacturer would sell a chassis without a body? One reason might be as replacement parts and another might be because the manufacturer has its own line of self-assembly kits to put on the chassis or such like.
I think the economics of manufacturing and marketing probably make it unattractive to sell chassis and that the price of a chassis alone would be as much as a complete locomotive. The economics might even suggest the chassis alone is priced higher than the loco. I imagine that a sizeable amount of the 'added value' of the product comes from its presentation as a desirable object, its packaging and marketing.
Possibly the commitment to buy multiple lots of a chassis would make up for the expense of a separate product line and lost revenue of those willing to buy a complete locomotive for the chassis alone. Where the trade-off point would be I don't know. It might be 10s, 100s or more. Even then it is potentially giving another manufacturer the opportunity to take part of the market share away from them, so to avoid giving a leg up to competitors, sales units would have to be small and priced close to the full product and the economies of scale count against the original producer.
Excluding the Japanese chassis (discussed on NGRM-online), the examples that spring to mind are Minitrains selling of an unpainted version of the Gmeinder diesel (which may have been an experiment to test the water) and presumably batches of rolling stock sold to third parties for bespoke liveries such as some examples originating from Peco. I've no idea in such cases the third party buys unassembled and unpainted models or whether the third party commissions a batch of painted models to their specification. However it is done, it is clear that the manufacturer does not sell unpainted, unassembled models to the public. In the case of Peco though they have sold 009 wagons in 'plain' livery'.
In the old days it would be doubtful but as most stock is produced in batches these days I'd have thought it would actually be easier for the manufacturer to add on a couple of hundred chassis to their next order if the wished.
From what I understand there is very little difference in price when contracting one of the Chinese factories to make a complete loco or just a chassis, in some cases it is the same price! There is also an issue with booking a production slot that may well be some months or even years in advance.
For a manufacture, quite obviously if the production cost is about the same and there is limited production capacity that needs to be booked some way in advance I doubt it would be worth them making just a chassis.
Obviously with the models made 'in house' by Kato I would think that the situation is somewhat different.
I'm not talking of us contracting it out, I'm talking of the Manufacturer (Farish & Co) adding a number of chassis only to the batch of locos they are already doing. As for cost, I'd love to know where you have the info to say that a chassis only will be the same price as a chassis and body, Brian, I can see the chassis being more costly than the body, but there's till the cost of the materials and assembly for the body which won't take place so saving costs...
It's a suggestion that those in the Society with the connections could look at asking, OK it may be refused, fine, but to shoot it down when we don't even know the facts is pushing it!
Quote from: Hobby on June 15, 2021, 09:25
I'm not talking of us contracting it out, I'm talking of the Manufacturer (Farish & Co) adding a number of chassis only to the batch of locos they are already doing. As for cost, I'd love to know where you have the info to say that a chassis only will be the same price as a chassis and body, Brian, I can see the chassis being more costly than the body, but there's till the cost of the materials and assembly for the body which won't take place so saving costs...
It's a suggestion that those in the Society with the connections could look at asking, OK it may be refused, fine, but to shoot it down when we don't even know the facts is pushing it!
Yes I tolaly agree it is well worth asking, and I for one would love to be able to get chassis without bodies at a much reduced price.
The reason the prices will be similar or the same is all down to how the models are now commissioned and contracted to be made with much of the design and mould making work done by the factory from specifications provided by the model company.
The end result is that chassis and the bodies are not considered by the factories in China to be separate items, they are designed and produced as a single item.
Nice idea, but.....
Within the last year we have talked to both Bachmann (who of course are Farish) and Kato about this idea. We were met with polite refusal by Bachmann even though we have a friendly relationship with them. From Kato we got a much warmer response, so fingers crossed on that, bu perhaps they were already planning to do it. We haven't tried Heljan again recently, but we can do so.
I think that loco chassis availability is a major issue for us and one where the new ways of working (batch production by remote contractors) does not give the same stable availability as the old ways (short runs by own factory to keep stock up to date), which were far more flexible. We will keep working at it and looking for options.
Julian
Chairman
It would be nice to buy chassis, but what is in it for the manufacturer or the retailer? I learned through the similar discussion on NGRM-online there is a reason why Kato and similar chassis are available - there is a sizable market in motorizing static plastic models and it is clear from sites like Hobby Search that there is continuous stream of new 'collectable' models and liveries and even if only a tiny proportion of them get motorized it is quite possibly a sizeable ongoing market. Despite observations that the chassis appear all over the place in 009 models we are possibly right down in the noise level as a proportion of chassis sales.
Presumably the purchaser will expect to pay less for a chassis than a complete loco. I can believe that the difference in cost in producing and supplying a chassis and a locomotive is minimal. Even if there is a difference regarding the time for assembly and the workers wages it could well be swallowed up in the processing and handling of a separate product line in all the stages up to final retail purchase so I doubt there would be big savings for the consumer.
Given a retailer can afford to purchase and have £xxx of stock on the shelves and locomotives are likely sell more than chassis what would they prefer to stock? Even if they hold a dozen locomotives and one chassis (or any other proportion) how certain are they that the chassis will sell before the stock of locomotives is depleted? What is the probability if only a chassis remains on the shelves that the next purchaser wants a loco or a chassis? If there are no chassis in stock, is a person wanting one going to walk out of the shop empty-handed or pay for a complete loco?
When it comes to the big 'box shifters' what is the likelihood of the price of their complete locomotives being less than a specialist shop that sells chassis? Are small retailers going to fear being left with unsold chassis while their potential customers go for lower prices for complete locomotives from the big discount sellers?
Quote from: Julian Evison on June 15, 2021, 10:28
Within the last year we have talked to both Bachmann (who of course are Farish) and Kato about this idea. We were met with polite refusal by Bachmann even though we have a friendly relationship with them. From Kato we got a much warmer response, so fingers crossed on that, bu perhaps they were already planning to do it.
The information about Kato is interesting.
I know it is going off into realms of fantasy and speculation, but one could imagine they have seen the rise in 3D printing and small 'Garage' model manufacturers and have looked into the possibility of a multitude of motorizable steam outline locomotive plastic kits. I could imagine having some outlet like that sustaining the production of a steam chassis. Maybe they have seen what can be done on the same Minitrains chassis and think 'we want a bit of that'?
I could see something like that resulting in chassis becoming available.
Another issue is that a bare chassis would require different packaging to the full model, so there would be the expense of that which would have to be re-couped over the first batch. This will put the price up and make the whole idea unattractive.
Bachmann sold chassis separately, in their own packaging, I have one in my chassis box still it's original packaging bought from Warley only a few years ago. It isn't something they've not done before.
Anyhow I've suggested the idea, Julian says they are looking at it and speaking to people, that'll do me!
Quote from: Hobby on June 15, 2021, 11:38
Bachmann sold chassis separately, in their own packaging, I have one in my chassis box still it's original packaging bought from Warley only a few years ago. It isn't something they've not done before.
Anyhow I've suggested the idea, Julian says they are looking at it and speaking to people, that'll do me!
I would be interested to know what label it has on the box, my guess would be it is for a complete loco, not just the chassis.
Quite often the items sold by Bachmann at Warley are 'returns' either from customers or items that had a fault in production.
It is not unknown for manufactures to remove the faulty produced body and then sell the perfectly good chassis. I know of at least two manufactures that have done this over the past 20 years, in at least one case they got a complete re-fund from the manufacture so were able to sell the chassis off at a greatly reduced price.
Yes it was in the box that the loco was in, for what that's worth, boxes come cheap, it proves that the box isn't an issue, though.
Quote from: Hobby on June 15, 2021, 11:38
Anyhow I've suggested the idea, Julian says they are looking at it and speaking to people, that'll do me!
Thanks Blair - we'll keep looking for opportunities as it is important to so many 009 modellers.
Julian
Quote from: Hobby on June 15, 2021, 12:38
Yes it was in the box that the loco was in, for what that's worth, boxes come cheap, it proves that the box isn't an issue, though.
I think this may well have been one with a fault in the body during manufacture. This does happen from time to time, sometimes with an entire batch! The faulty body has probably been removed, or even returned to the factory and Bachmann have probably been credited for the entire loco and can then sell the chassis at a discounted price.
An alternative to persuading a manufacturer to sell chassis on there own would be to produce one or more chassis kits, or to facilitate some of the small manufacrurers to produce chassis kits by producing wheels, which are the key things we do not have in 009.
Frank
For argument sake, let's say a chassis/frame was made. Then comes the question of inside framed or outside.
Wheels, gearing (all wheel drive or side rod driven) quartering, motor, worm, rivets or screws to secure the side rods to the wheels, cranks, electrical pick ups etc, etc.
How many of us have the dexterity to assemble something so small and intricate. Some of us would be so frustrated at the fact of putting it together only to find out it is binding some where.... but where? Now I'm not being negative I'm just throwing this out there.
I can't see myself assembling a kit like this. I don't have that patience any more.
Robin.
I agree with you Robin, hence my suggestion for RTR chassis. As the Kato 103/4/9 has proved accuracy is not something many 009 modelers worry about, something that runs that they can fit under a kit or 3d print body without having to fiddle around assembling it is more important!
Playing devil's advocate here, if one is not too fussy and it is a matter of something to bung under a 3D printed body, it is not so much a matter of chassis not being manufactured, but of availability in the UK, e.g.
https://www.plazajapan.com/4957265140360/ (https://www.plazajapan.com/4957265140360/)
though I may have spoken too soon as I see they are sold out on Hobby Search
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10712618 (https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10712618)
(https://www.1999.co.jp/itbig71/10712618.jpg)
One can hope that they sell well, and manufacturers take note and think they can see a potential market for something a little more powerful and slow running. Perhaps consumer pressure in Japan on seeing that reasonably priced smooth running chassis can be done will demand it. Maybe the Shorty tram and multiple unit market is saturated and consumers are looking for something else. Who knows?
Quote from: Robin Webster on June 15, 2021, 21:09
For argument sake, let's say a chassis/frame was made. Then comes the question of inside framed or outside.
Wheels, gearing (all wheel drive or side rod driven) quartering, motor, worm, rivets or screws to secure the side rods to the wheels, cranks, electrical pick ups etc, etc.
How many of us have the dexterity to assemble something so small and intricate. Some of us would be so frustrated at the fact of putting it together only to find out it is binding some where.... but where? Now I'm not being negative I'm just throwing this out there.
I can't see myself assembling a kit like this. I don't have that patience any more.
Robin.
These are all good questions.
We are complaining about old chassis being no longer available - these were all inside framed, and people still used them. It might be possible to have an inside frame chassis with additional cosmetic outside frames as an option, if you designed it with that in mind.
Similarly, the wheelbase of the old chassis was generally not exact but near enough for people to accept them. Maybe a well thought out way of making the kits could do several wheelbases? Say etches with different wheelbases and corresponding rods? Or 3D printed variations?
Rod, gear or layshaft drive are all possible alternatives, but these are details for the team designing the chassis to sort out. Ditto pickups.
Assembly depends on how it is designed but there are "fold up" chassis designs out there that are easy to assemble. Or it could be 3D printed so as to be easy to assemble, say screw together.
Not everyone would want to tackle building their own chassis, but some would, maybe quite a few if it was made easy, and at the moment we have no chassis at all for many of the body kits that exist.
All I am saying is that it would be a good idea for someone in the Society to look into this as a possible way forwards.
For me, the main stopper at the moment is the lack of wheels, and this is something the Society could address.
Frank
For those that may not know Neil Moss of Mosskito Narrow Gauge has developed and produced a range of 6.2mm and 8mm wheels and axles intended for outside frame loco chassis that have square mounts on the axles ends making quatering a doddle.
The axles are 2mm and designed to fit the Tenshodo power bogie worm gear.
https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/collections/mosskito-narrow-gauge/products/mosskito-6-2mm-dia-wheelset-with-extended-axle-and-cranks
https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/collections/mosskito-narrow-gauge/products/mosskito-8-0mm-dia-wheelset-with-extended-axle-and-cranks
Neil Moss has also been responsiable for the design, development and production of the Greenwich wheels that are now supplied in most, if not all the 009 Society and Dundas rolling stock kits.
Quote from: GraemeD on June 16, 2021, 07:54
Playing devil's advocate here, if one is not too fussy and it is a matter of something to bung under a 3D printed body, it is not so much a matter of chassis not being manufactured, but of availability in the UK, e.g.
https://www.plazajapan.com/4957265140360/ (https://www.plazajapan.com/4957265140360/)
though I may have spoken too soon as I see they are sold out on Hobby Search
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10712618 (https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10712618)
(https://www.1999.co.jp/itbig71/10712618.jpg)
One can hope that they sell well, and manufacturers take note and think they can see a potential market for something a little more powerful and slow running. Perhaps consumer pressure in Japan on seeing that reasonably priced smooth running chassis can be done will demand it. Maybe the Shorty tram and multiple unit market is saturated and consumers are looking for something else. Who knows?
These tiny chassis do not run well!
They are fine for going round and round, but they require more power to get them going from a standing start so are not good on layouts that require stop start opperation and they are useless for shuntting. Changing the motor can help a bit, but it is the gearing that is the problem. Adding a resistor just saps the motor of power, and it is not very strong in the first place.
They also end up with contact problems after only a short amount of use.
I would not recomend their use in a 009 loco, or at all come to that!
I'm not convinced about a chassis kit, yes it would allow people to have a chassis neared scale for their chosen prototype but I would seriously question whether most 009 modellers would want or buy them. It is clear from the use of chassis that are not particularly suitable that many (majority?) of 009 modellers don't hold chassis accuracy as a priority. I'd suggest, however, that they do regard the chassis as being RTR in high regard. Many won't even add a cylinder and connecting rods to the Farish 08 even though they are available... In theory we already have the answer for 0-4-0 chassis in the N Drive version, the issue is the lack of production in the numbers needed.
We hear Kato and Bachmann have been approached. Has anyone contacted or is it worth contacting Andreas Schönfeld at Minitrains?
Quote from: GraemeD on June 16, 2021, 11:24
We hear Kato and Bachmann have been approached. Has anyone contacted or is it worth contacting Andreas Schönfeld at Minitrains?
Yes it is worth asking as I think Andreas is a member of the 009 Society.
I would guess his response would be based on the popularity of the chassis that he has previoulsy sold via 009 society sales. But I would guess he sold a lot more complete locos of any given type than the chassis on their own.
Quote from: GraemeD on June 16, 2021, 11:24
We hear Kato and Bachmann have been approached. Has anyone contacted or is it worth contacting Andreas Schönfeld at Minitrains?
Good idea, Graeme, as I don't think we have been in contact with him recently. I will investigate, but please don't expect anything quickly as there will be many steps to take.
Julian
I wonder if Sven from Tramfabriek has ever thought about it? he already sells motor kits and wheels ???
And I am glad I just looked because I hadn't noticed that he does a complete motor kit for the old Jouef Decauville locos, and I have to say that I am very tempted.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on June 18, 2021, 11:24
I wonder if Sven from Tramfabriek has ever thought about it? he already sells motor kits and wheels ???
And I am glad I just looked because I hadn't noticed that he does a complete motor kit for the old Jouef Decauville locos, and I have to say that I am very tempted.
The hard part about producing a chassis is the gears and wheels. As mentioned above wheels for outside frame chassis have been addressed my Neil Moss, but gears are another matter.
Related to gears and wheels, an aspect that can be challenging and a huge risk for a producer is second sourcing of components. There may be a certain minimum quantity that makes production economic and the maker might go with that or invest in a stock that is likely to last for the foreseeable future. That can be a big risk and financial burden. For some items it may be possible to follow the industry 'just in time' principle but that may also be a challenge for a small producer.
Second sourcing (at one removed) of chassis has been I presume a bugbear of producers of whitemetal kits.
I guess this is where products such as etched brass kits or 3D prints are a 'safer' option than small scale chassis or chassis kit production and why there is so much choice. At least there is the fallback of producing non-powered or even non-wheeled, non-railway products.
If a sustainable source of chassis from small producers is desirable then it may be worth considering how the modelling community could support them other than simply buying the end product.
Quote from: B.Meldon on June 18, 2021, 13:01
The hard part about producing a chassis is the gears and wheels. As mentioned above wheels for outside frame chassis have been addressed my Neil Moss, but gears are another matter.
In theory I could 3D print a chassis but I would want a lot more practice with 3d CAD before starting that. This would include mounting for a motor, and a pulley system for a drive belt, probably from Nigel Lawton, for the main drive
However that still means a lay shaft and gears for driving the axles from somewhere, not to mention the steam "gubbings", or I might as well use a Kato.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on June 19, 2021, 02:42
Quote from: B.Meldon on June 18, 2021, 13:01
The hard part about producing a chassis is the gears and wheels. As mentioned above wheels for outside frame chassis have been addressed my Neil Moss, but gears are another matter.
In theory I could 3D print a chassis but I would want a lot more practice with 3d CAD before starting that. This would include mounting for a motor, and a pulley system for a drive belt, probably from Nigel Lawton, for the main drive
However that still means a lay shaft and gears for driving the axles from somewhere, not to mention the steam "gubbings", or I might as well use a Kato.
I'm sure you are not the only person to have that thought. ;D
... and there are plenty of people with the relevant CAD skills and the observation that the market is not awash with such chassis suggests it is not the limiting factor in their production and availability.
Quote from: GraemeD on June 19, 2021, 08:07
... and there are plenty of people with the relevant CAD skills and the observation that the market is not awash with such chassis suggests it is not the limiting factor in their production and availability.
I have been thinking the same thing. In practice my resin prints by themselves are probably not right for a complete chassis. Some warp after a while and if you make them too thing they can break.
My initial thoughts are to use resin printed end blocks, approx 1x1x1 cm that would hold metal etched side pieces in place.
Each block would have two holes drilled right through from side to side in which you would glue a 2mm threaded insert (spacer) so the side pieces would bolt into place and not need bolts. It would have a recess to support lay shaft.
You would then have a third print that went between the ends, holding the wheels, lay shaft, and motor in place.
That would b easy enough to make up in batches, and would not require much skill to assemble. My major concern is the stabilty of the resin prints.