New Chassis Sales without bodies?

[Hobby]

Something that comes up regularly is people using an N (or RTR 009) chassis for another loco, either scratch or kit built. Is it worth the Society approaching manufacturers to see if they could do chassis only runs? I believe that Kato are already thinking about doing it with their forthcoming joint release with Peco, but the Japanese manufacturers already have a history of selling them separately so that's not unexpected and Minitrains have done a few. Could the Society "nudge" say Farish (the 08) and Bachmann (the two 009 040s), even Heljan (for the (2)-6-(2)) for instance? It might be something that's been tried before but perhaps it's worth another gentle nudge with the current growth in 009?

[Stephen Rainsbury]

I would certainly be interested in that too

[Graeme Dunbar]

It would be nice, but I suspect it will not happen. It may not be just because the size of the market does not support it but because of the lack of imperative.

One may consider why a manufacturer would sell a chassis without a body? One reason might be as replacement parts and another might be because the manufacturer has its own line of self-assembly kits to put on the chassis or such like.

I think the economics of manufacturing and marketing probably make it unattractive to sell chassis and that the price of a chassis alone would be as much as a complete locomotive. The economics might even suggest the chassis alone is priced higher than the loco. I imagine that a sizeable amount of the 'added value' of the product comes from its presentation as a desirable object, its packaging and marketing.

Possibly the commitment to buy multiple lots of a chassis would make up for the expense of a separate product line and lost revenue of those willing to buy a complete locomotive for the chassis alone. Where the trade-off point would be I don't know. It might be 10s, 100s or more. Even then it is potentially giving another manufacturer the opportunity to take part of the market share away from them, so to avoid giving a leg up to competitors, sales units would have to be small and priced close to the full product and the economies of scale count against the original producer.

Excluding the Japanese chassis (discussed on NGRM-online), the examples that spring to mind are Minitrains selling of an unpainted version of the Gmeinder diesel (which may have been an experiment to test the water) and presumably batches of rolling stock sold to third parties for bespoke liveries such as some examples originating from Peco. I've no idea in such cases the third party buys unassembled and unpainted models or whether the third party commissions a batch of painted models to their specification. However it is done, it is clear that the manufacturer does not sell unpainted, unassembled models to the public. In the case of Peco though they have sold 009 wagons in 'plain' livery'.

[Hobby]

In the old days it would be doubtful but as most stock is produced in batches these days I'd have thought it would actually be easier for the manufacturer to add on a couple of hundred chassis to their next order if the wished.

[B.Meldon]

From what I understand there is very little difference in price when contracting one of the Chinese factories to make a complete loco or just a chassis, in some cases it is the same price! There is also an issue with booking a production slot that may well be some months or even years in advance.
For a manufacture, quite obviously if the production cost is about the same and there is limited production capacity that needs to be booked some way in advance I doubt it would be worth them making just a chassis.
Obviously with the models made 'in house' by Kato I would think that the situation is somewhat different.

[Hobby]

I'm not talking of us contracting it out, I'm talking of the Manufacturer (Farish & Co) adding a number of chassis only to the batch of locos they are already doing. As for cost, I'd love to know where you have the info to say that a chassis only will be the same price as a chassis and body, Brian, I can see the chassis being more costly than the body, but there's till the cost of the materials and assembly for the body which won't take place so saving costs...

It's a suggestion that those in the Society with the connections could look at asking, OK it may be refused, fine, but to shoot it down when we don't even know the facts is pushing it!

[B.Meldon]

I'm not talking of us contracting it out, I'm talking of the Manufacturer (Farish & Co) adding a number of chassis only to the batch of locos they are already doing. As for cost, I'd love to know where you have the info to say that a chassis only will be the same price as a chassis and body, Brian, I can see the chassis being more costly than the body, but there's till the cost of the materials and assembly for the body which won't take place so saving costs...

It's a suggestion that those in the Society with the connections could look at asking, OK it may be refused, fine, but to shoot it down when we don't even know the facts is pushing it!

Yes I tolaly agree it is well worth asking, and I for one would love to be able to get chassis without bodies at a much reduced price. 

The reason the prices will be similar or the same is all down to how the models are now commissioned and contracted to be made with much of the design and mould making work done by the factory from specifications provided by the model company.
The end result is that chassis and the bodies are not considered by the factories in China to be separate items, they are designed and produced as a single item.

[Julian Evison]

Nice idea, but.....

Within the last year we have talked to both Bachmann (who of course are Farish) and Kato about this idea. We were met with polite refusal by Bachmann even though we have a friendly relationship with them. From Kato we got a much warmer response, so fingers crossed on that, bu perhaps they were already planning to do it. We haven't tried Heljan again recently, but we can do so.

I think that loco chassis availability is a major issue for us and one where the new ways of working (batch production by remote contractors) does not give the same stable availability as the old ways (short runs by own factory to keep stock up to date), which were far more flexible. We will keep working at it and looking for options.

Julian
Chairman

[Graeme Dunbar]

It would be nice to buy chassis, but what is in it for the manufacturer or the retailer? I learned through the similar discussion on NGRM-online there is a reason why Kato and similar chassis are available - there is a sizable market in motorizing static plastic models and it is clear from sites like Hobby Search that there is continuous stream of new 'collectable' models and liveries and even if only a tiny proportion of them get motorized it is quite possibly a sizeable ongoing market. Despite observations that the chassis appear all over the place in 009 models we are possibly right down in the noise level as a proportion of chassis sales.

Presumably the purchaser will expect to pay less for a chassis than a complete loco. I can believe that the difference in cost in producing and supplying a chassis and a locomotive is minimal. Even if there is a difference regarding the time for assembly and the workers wages it could well be swallowed up in the processing and handling of a separate product line in all the stages up to final retail purchase so I doubt there would be big savings for the consumer.

Given a retailer can afford to purchase and have £xxx of stock on the shelves and locomotives are likely sell more than chassis what would they prefer to stock? Even if they hold a dozen locomotives and one chassis (or any other proportion) how certain are they that the chassis will sell before the stock of locomotives is depleted? What is the probability if only a chassis remains on the shelves that the next purchaser wants a loco or a chassis? If there are no chassis in stock, is a person wanting one going to walk out of the shop empty-handed or pay for a complete loco?

When it comes to the big 'box shifters' what is the likelihood  of the price of their complete locomotives being less than a specialist shop that sells chassis? Are small retailers going to fear being left with unsold chassis while their potential customers go for lower prices for complete locomotives from the big discount sellers?

[Graeme Dunbar]

Within the last year we have talked to both Bachmann (who of course are Farish) and Kato about this idea. We were met with polite refusal by Bachmann even though we have a friendly relationship with them. From Kato we got a much warmer response, so fingers crossed on that, bu perhaps they were already planning to do it.

The information about Kato is interesting.

I know it is going off into realms of fantasy and speculation, but one could imagine they have seen the rise in 3D printing and small 'Garage' model manufacturers and have looked into the possibility of a multitude of motorizable steam outline locomotive plastic kits. I could imagine having some outlet like that sustaining the production of a steam chassis. Maybe they have seen what can be done on the same Minitrains chassis and think 'we want a bit of that'?

I could see something like that  resulting in chassis becoming available.

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Another issue is that a bare chassis would require different packaging to the full model, so there would be the expense of that which would have to be re-couped over the first batch. This will put the price up and make the whole idea unattractive.

[Hobby]

Bachmann sold chassis separately, in their own packaging, I have one in my chassis box still it's original packaging bought from Warley only a few years ago. It isn't something they've not done before.

Anyhow I've suggested the idea, Julian says they are looking at it and speaking to people, that'll do me!

[B.Meldon]

Bachmann sold chassis separately, in their own packaging, I have one in my chassis box still it's original packaging bought from Warley only a few years ago. It isn't something they've not done before.

Anyhow I've suggested the idea, Julian says they are looking at it and speaking to people, that'll do me!

I would be interested to know what label it has on the box, my guess would be it is for a complete loco, not just the chassis.

Quite often the items sold by Bachmann at Warley are 'returns' either from customers or items that had a fault in production.
It is not unknown for manufactures to remove the faulty produced body and then sell the perfectly good chassis. I know of at least two manufactures that have done this over the past 20 years, in at least one case they got a complete re-fund from the manufacture so were able to sell the chassis off at a greatly reduced price.

[Hobby]

Yes it was in the box that the loco was in, for what that's worth, boxes come cheap, it proves that the box isn't an issue, though.

[Julian Evison]

Anyhow I've suggested the idea, Julian says they are looking at it and speaking to people, that'll do me!

Thanks Blair - we'll keep looking for opportunities as it is important to so many 009 modellers.

Julian