I bought a few Egger Bahn goods vans but have found the wheels are very loose
In their fittings. You can move them up and down by about 1-2mm and as a result the wheels are rubbing against the top of the axle casing which doesn't give a particularly
Smooth run! Can anyone suggest a solution? Many thanks.
The axles are typically loose in their bearings, intentionally to minimise derailments. However, they normally do not rub against the chassis.
Two possible reasons for that:
1. Bend chassis.
2. Worn out bearing cup in the axle boxes.
To recognise the first check whether the chassis floor is flat, and whether the axle boxes are at right angle to the floor (might have to remove the axle for that). One quite common cause for bend chassis is the application of glue (adding ballast etc.), one common cause for bend axle boxes is removing axles (if that's a hint).
Straightening bend chassis can be tricky, your best shoot is a 2mm steel sheet cut to shape covering most of the floor, and glued inside the body with contact glue (UHU; Evostick, etc.). The floor might have to be levelled.
Bend axleboxes need bending back with care (Requires axle removal).
Best fix for worn out bearing cups is installing brass bearing cups...
The cut-all-corners solution is installing modern wheels with smaller flanges, a big nono for the collector.
The other sticky-plaster solution is to shim the axle boxes with a washer on the retainer pin, between the chassis. and the axle subframe.
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
Quote from: Peter Richardson on January 13, 2020, 22:18
I bought a few Egger Bahn goods vans but have found the wheels are very loose
In their fittings. You can move them up and down by about 1-2mm and as a result the wheels are rubbing against the top of the axle casing which doesn't give a particularly
Smooth run! Can anyone suggest a solution? Many thanks.
I second the brass bearing cups, which are available from Dundas here.
https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/category/511-dundas-models-009-wheels-bearings (https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/category/511-dundas-models-009-wheels-bearings)
Stephen
Unfortunately, many of these wagons have this same problem.
This is one of the Jouef French made versions of the Egger van made between 1968 and 1971. Jouef used larger grey plastic insulators in the middle of the wheels that can, and often do, rub on the bogie pivot. Also, the bogie pivots were often not pushed in fully at the factory causing the axle to rub on the surface of the bogie pivot. This makes them run poorly, it is very common on these Jouef made vans and coaches and is all down to the very poor-quality control at the factory.
In addition, the one axle bogies are hopeless when propelling as they just turn to one side and can then de-rail in the points!
There are solutions:
If you have a minimum radius of 12 inch and only have 18-inch reverse curves you can remove the pivot and fix the bogies in the central position. However, this will not work on curves under 12 inch or in 12-inch reverse curves.
(It also only works with the Egger coaches and vans with the wider couplings made from about 1966.)
If you have smaller curves and/or 12-inch reverse curves then the bogies cannot be fixed in place because the couplings will jam.
The next solution is to remove the bogie pivot, but it will probably snap off in the wagon chassis, re-drill the pivot hole, add a new pin to the plastic pivot and ensure that it is pushed in further than before so the axle does not rub on it. (I have a box of the Egger bogie pivots reclaimed from vehicles that have had their bogies changed or have been re-built into longer vehicles, but obvioulsy this is not an optioin for most people.)
You can also remove the wheels from the axles and file down the back surface of the oversized wheel insulators.
However, you will still have the issue with the bogie twisting when the vehicle is propelled.
In short these bogies were a poor design from new in 1964 made worse by Jouef with the oversize wheel insulators and very poor-quality control from 1968 to 1971.
I do have a lot of these. Over the years I have invisible repaired any that had this problem, or have replaced them with others that do not, but when running them on my layout when I have 'Egger days' I always use a small bit of blutack to hold the bogies centrally, but I can do this as I have wide enough curves.
I also have a few that have been modified for use on Meanderbahn with its 9-inch curves and these all have had the bogies replaced with two axle Roco log bolster bogies.
Brian Meldon
Just to avoid confusion the better ones to get for the Egger chassis may be the "N Gauge Brass Bearing Cups (20) DP09" as the Romford ones may well be too deep and you'll end up with the outside face of the wheel rubbing on the inside face of the bearing, possibly before the pin on the end of the axle has 'bottomed out' in the cup.
To fit them you'll need to drill out the dimples in the Egger moulding from the inside which is a little awkward, and I'd also caution that you need to get it right - if you don't drill deep enough and the axle will be tight leading to poor running, drill out too much and you'll be back where our started with sloppy axles and poor running.
Just out of interest would coupling the two "bogies" together with something elastic to "centre" them not work to prevent any issues when pushing them?
Quote from: Hobby on January 14, 2020, 10:08
Just out of interest would coupling the two "bogies" together with something elastic to "centre" them not work to prevent any issues when pushing them?
I do not think in practice it would work. It would have to be very week in strength so that the pressure on the coupling would still turn the bogie but strong enough, so the bogie self-centralises when being pushed. But some experiments would be needed to prove this either way.
I use a tiny bit of foam rubber wither side to centralise swinging couplings, and it works well. But that would not be practical on the Egger vans and coach bogies.
Just for an example the long plastic 'tail' on the Liliput van and coach couplings is too strong and the vehicles will derail before the coupling turns.
Brian Meldon
I'm a bit confused here. Brian talks about wheel insulation rubbing on the pivot pin head. Re-reading the original question I can't tally the two, the question was about wheels rubbing against the chassis, or was it?
Anyway, while I second Stephen that that brass bearing cups are the preferred solution for repairing worn bearings, I suggest first things first: identify the problem, i.e. check the bogie isn't broken or warped. Fix any such defects before contemplating other fixes.
Essentially, brass bearing cups come in 3 versions, stamped sheet material, turned stock with or without flange. The flanged version are easiest to align, but the stamped sheet cups are the thinnest, i.e. require the least drilling. While a drill bit may be used, it is tricky as you can't square it to the indent in the plastic, unless you cut it to fit between the axle boxes; at which point you'll struggle to grab it and turn it. But for the stamped metal cups a ball-shaped dental mill bit of appropriate size may be used.
As you mention that the axle is very loose, it is unlikely a lot of grinding will be needed. Use a bristle from a brush, cut to length of the axle, to check depth. 2-component glue like Araldite allows adjustment during setting and compensates for inaccuracies.
I find the swivel of the bogie is limited enough not to cause grief when pushing those vehicles, even after fitting Romford axles and wheels. Try straight-spoked ones, I find them a vast improvement in appearance.
Cheers
Waldschrat
Many thanks for taking the time to respond and give such detailed advice. As a newcomer to 009, I really appreciate this! I have ordered a set of brass bearing cups from Dundas this afternoon and will see if they may help.
Quote from: Peter Richardson on January 14, 2020, 17:38
Many thanks for taking the time to respond and give such detailed advice. As a newcomer to 009, I really appreciate this! I have ordered a set of brass bearing cups from Dundas this afternoon and will see if they may help.
That's the one I use (see above) In theory these should just push in, but mine didn't so I had to open them up slightly with a drill bit in a pin vice. Sorry I don't know the size, I tried several from my stand until I found one that worked and didn't look at the diameter.
I really like the difference and plan to retrofit most of my kit with them.
Stephen
On second thoughts, Brian, you make me wonder, because you say it's a systemic issue with certain Eggerbahn vehicles produced by Jouef: could it be that Jouef used their own line of axles and these are a little bit shorter than the genuine Eggerbahn ones (which look like they came from Mehanotechnica or Lima)?
My Jouef Eggerbahn stuff is of uncertain pedigree, so I can't check.
What I can confirm is that on the Jpuef Decauville skips the flanges grind on the skip, so maybe the Jouef designers had a problem with tolerances and wear & tear anyway?
Ronford curved spoke wheels enhance their appearance markedly anyway. :laugh:
Just wondering
Waldschrat
If the original Jouef/Egger Bahn wheel sets don't run well with the new brass bearing cups, I will try new wheel sets. Any advice on where the Romford spoked wheels mentioned, can be obtained? Also, what diameter is required? Many thanks! Peter
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 15, 2020, 16:35
On second thoughts, Brian, you make me wonder, because you say it's a systemic issue with certain Eggerbahn vehicles produced by Jouef: could it be that Jouef used their own line of axles and these are a little bit shorter than the genuine Eggerbahn ones (which look like they came from Mehanotechnica or Lima)?
My Jouef Eggerbahn stuff is of uncertain pedigree, so I can't check.
What I can confirm is that on the Jpuef Decauville skips the flanges grind on the skip, so maybe the Jouef designers had a problem with tolerances and wear & tear anyway?
...........................
Waldschrat
Lots in that worth responding to! But some is a bit off topic.
You can tell the difference by looking at the plastic insulators in the middle of the wheels:
The larger grey plastic insulators were used by Jouef from 1968 to 1971.
The smaller transparent plastic insulators were used by Egger-bahn up to 1968.
(The Jouef axles are also slightly thicker.)
The Mehanotechnica and Lima axles are not the same as those used by Egger-bahn or Jouef. If they did come from these makers they were made specially for Egger-bahn and Jouef, and I doubt that. (The Egger tram coach bogies and wheels, and probably the entire coach, did come from Lima.)
The Jouef V skips were a bit of a disaster in terms of their design! The idea was they were supposed to be operating wagons that could be loaded and later tipped out on the layout. Much like the Minitrix N gauge V skip wagons that predate the Jouef items by about a year. However, it was soon discovered that any track side tipping mechanism would either have to be quite complicated or it would hit on the side of the coaches and the loco! Not only that but loading the wagons from a shoot from above that needed to clear the loco cab with the lighter material required so the loco could pull them caused the material to go all over the place! The wheel flanges fouling on the side of the V section was a design feature intended to both hold the wagon in position on the track when fully tipped and to hold the V section in the tipped position with the wheel flanges between groves on the side of the V section. Again, this was a poor design and all that happens is that the V section gets scratch marks from the wheels!
Jouef made several other errors with the design of their H0e range as follows:
The melting and cracking loco tank sides, later modified with a raised name plate to make the tank side stronger.
The end of the toast rack coach steps that were too thin and would snap, later modified with a thicker end to the steps.
The log wagons with real wood logs that would not sit on the track with both bogies flat, later modified with plastic logs.
The original points that were made with the motors too near the track so the coach step would hit them, soon modified so the motors were further away.
There were also the buffer stops that were near useless bits of orange plastic that came in the box with the points.
All in all, the Jouef H0e range was a bit of a design disaster!
The exception is the toast rack coach that is a very clever bit of design, but even this has a fault as the planking on the underside of the roof is moulded in the negative with ridges between the planks where there should be groves. (But hardly anyone notices this error!)
Quote from: Peter Richardson on January 15, 2020, 19:39
If the original Jouef/Egger Bahn wheel sets don't run well with the new brass bearing cups, I will try new wheel sets. Any advice on where the Romford spoked wheels mentioned, can be obtained? Also, what diameter is required? Many thanks! Peter
I'm not sure if they are made by Romford but Dundas (https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/category/511-dundas-models-009-wheels-bearings) Models supply a good range of 9 mm gauge wheelsets. I suspect that the best starting point would be whatever diameter matches those currently on the Egger Van.
That's brilliant. Brass cups should arrive today so if I have no joy I will try Dundas again for the wheels. I love the appearance of these box vans and the veranda coaches so am willing to replace wheels too, in order to get them running smoothly.
Thanks for all the information and advice on this.
Peter
For what it's worth, in my humble opinion the Jouef couplings were quite clever and not too obtrusive.
John Bruce.
Quote from: B.Meldon on January 16, 2020, 10:58
The end of the toast rack coach steps that were too thin and would snap, later modified with a thicker end to the steps.
What he said.. oh sorry as the youngsters say "word"
I bought one of them from eBay and didn't notice the broken step but neither did the seller and he offered to refund but I kept it and have been trying to make a replacement from plasticard ever since. The big issue is that I can't find exactly the right colour to paint it, but I noticed somebody on the book of faces had repaired his and just painted the whole bottom part black, which actually looked alright.
I see on the Peco website they are now advertising Jackson/Romford metal wheels.
Quote from: Peter Richardson on January 16, 2020, 16:34
That's brilliant. Brass cups should arrive today so if I have no joy I will try Dundas again for the wheels. I love the appearance of these box vans and the veranda coaches so am willing to replace wheels too, in order to get them running smoothly.
Thanks for all the information and advice on this.
Peter
The bogies and wheels on the Egger tram coach at the end of the train in your photo were made for Egger-bahn by Lima and are not the same as those used on the shorter Egger coaches.
We found that by far the best solution if you want to run the four-wheel Egger bogie coaches and vans reliably is to remove the original bogies and fit Roco/Minitrains log bolster bogies at the ends.
The early egger coaches look even better with far more detail at the ends. In fact the later ones are a bit of a bodge as the bodies retain the original holes for the previous detail, the handrails moulded on the ends of the body are partly covered, they have no windows in the end doors and the window/roof moulding does not fit properly! However the couplings are narrower on the early versions.
Here is a link to a photo of the early pre 1966 version:
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.egger-bahn.nl%2Fimages%2Ffoto%2520p3.jpg&hash=803df4c5d77a6f5a90eb41b049b76f515e55cd62)
(Originating web page: http://www.egger-bahn.nl/smalspoor%20foto_perswagens.html )
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on January 16, 2020, 23:52
Quote from: B.Meldon on January 16, 2020, 10:58
The end of the toast rack coach steps that were too thin and would snap, later modified with a thicker end to the steps.
What he said.. oh sorry as the youngsters say "word"
I bought one of them from eBay and didn't notice the broken step but neither did the seller and he offered to refund but I kept it and have been trying to make a replacement from plasticard ever since. The big issue is that I can't find exactly the right colour to paint it, but I noticed somebody on the book of faces had repaired his and just painted the whole bottom part black, which actually looked alright.
I did have the right paint at one time, but I can not find it now as I have two that I have repaired. (Both on shortened coaches used on Meanderbahn.) I guess it went hard and I binned it! I use tin rather than plastic for the repair as I find it lasts better.
Brian Meldon
Thanks Brian, interesting to hear of the differences in the Egger Bahn coaches. Earlier version certainly superior! The bogie coach in my photo runs very well but I made up a Dundas WHR bogie coach to run with it and the bogies were less than free running...not a criticism of the kit more a reflection on my modelling skills. I used the Roco timber wagons as you mention and it now glides round. My first adaption which actually worked!
You pipped me to the post,, and yes, you're right: Romford makes the wheels for Dundas, and these are the ones I'm talking about. Straight spokes are more prototypical than curved spokes, but that's somewhat academic in the context of Eggerbahn.
Brian, you forgot the much more obvious design deviation: the toast rack coach is one sandwich short of a picknick, err, pardon the pun, missing one compartment. The fact that the box shows the correct number of compartments suggests that this was probably a last-minute change, maybe after they found out the coach was too long to negotiate thee tight radius?
Lima sold the 'Fiery Elias' set in their own package (with their own N-gauge track) under their own brand name, at least in Italy. The coach bogies are Italian Y27 (express) coach bogies, somewhat 50 years younger in design than the coaches of the OEG, i.e. completely wrong. Initially every N-gauge coach produced by Lima was fitted with those; yes, complete with the H0 coupling!
It is almost certain that engine and coaches were made by Lima. You can find pictures of these Lima sets on the Internet,
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 18, 2020, 21:31
You pipped me to the post,, and yes, you're right: Romford makes the wheels for Dundas, and these are the ones I'm talking about. Straight spokes are more prototypical than curved spokes, but that's somewhat academic in the context of Eggerbahn.
Brian, you forgot the much more obvious design deviation: the toast rack coach is one sandwich short of a picknick, err, pardon the pun, missing one compartment. The fact that the box shows the correct number of compartments suggests that this was probably a last-minute change, maybe after they found out the coach was too long to negotiate thee tight radius?
Lima sold the 'Fiery Elias' set in their own package (with their own N-gauge track) under their own brand name, at least in Italy. The coach bogies are Italian Y27 (express) coach bogies, somewhat 50 years younger in design than the coaches of the OEG, i.e. completely wrong. Initially every N-gauge coach produced by Lima was fitted with those; yes, complete with the H0 coupling!
It is almost certain that engine and coaches were made by Lima. You can find pictures of these Lima sets on the Internet,
Cheers
Waldschrat
If you have read the article in 009 News all about the Jouef range the length of the coaches is explained in some detail.
Again, if you read the article in 009 News all about the Egger tram loco in March 2015 its probable Lima origins are explained, there is even a photo of the Lima N gauge coach and the Egger coach next to each other on page 17.
Brian Meldon
Quote
If you have read the article in 009 News all about the Jouef range the length of the coaches is explained in some detail.
Again, if you read the article in 009 News all about the Egger tram loco in March 2015 its probable Lima origins are explained, there is even a photo of the Lima N gauge coach and the Egger coach next to each other on page 17.
Brian Meldon
The March 2015 issue of 009 News is available in the members-only library on the new website at https://009society.com (https://009society.com)
Dear Brian,
Yes, I read your articles, and noticed that they contained some fiction. Speaking foreign languages sometimes has an advantage, and if you read some Austrian, German, French and Italian web-sites, you'll know where the truth lies.
There are excellent web-sites, where former Liliput employees confirm some speculations, and debunk some myth. 8)
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on January 21, 2020, 00:01
Dear Brian,
Yes, I read your articles, and noticed that they contained some fiction. Speaking foreign languages sometimes has an advantage, and if you read some Austrian, German, French and Italian web-sites, you'll know where the truth lies.
There are excellent web-sites, where former Liliput employees confirm some speculations, and debunk some myth. 8)
Cheers
Waldschrat
can you please provide links to these web sites so we can all see the information.
Dear Brian,
Certainly not.
You're a funny man, if I may say so. Do you think I keep an archive of every web-page I ever visited, i.e. a hundred or so each week?
If at all, I copy the web-sites into word documents for future reference; which I can't post here for obvious reasons.
I had bad experiences where web-sites with important information have vanished.
And in this particular case, most of these web-sites do not come up by searching 'Eggerbahn' or similar, I chanced upon them when looking for other information, in quite a few cases not even model railway related topics.
Here is one:
http://www.bahnmuseum.at/
...and I think it has the citation of the former Liliput employees somewhere.
Sorry, but can you keep your requests reasonable, please?
Cheers
Waldschrat
With respect, W, if you make claims such as you have done in this case which challenge someone's own research and which has different results you will be asked to provide proof of the evidence of your claims. There is far too much "false information" floating around the internet these days so a request for the sources so that claims can be verified is perfectly reasonable. I am sure that if your claims could be verified Brian would be only too happy to change his articles to make them more accurate as that is the goal of any researcher, accuracy. A refusal to provide that information, though, can only lead to one conclusion, which is that the information is false or gossip and therefore can be ignored.
Based on some of the rubbish people spout these days "having read it on the 'net" and therefore assume it is true I only wish more people would challenge the stuff they read and question it's origins.
Waldschrat. I agree with Blair (Hobby) on this one. It is not unreasonable for Brian to ask you back up your assertions with proof and you are being unreasonable if you think otherwise. Until such time as you do back up your assertions that Brian is peddling fiction with some proof I, for one, will continue to treat Brian's research on Egger-Bahn and Jouef as gospel.
Malcolm
I have to agree; remarks like...
QuoteYes, I read your articles, and noticed that they contained some fiction. Speaking foreign languages sometimes has an advantage, and if you read some Austrian, German, French and Italian web-sites, you'll know where the truth lies.
...are not helpful unless they are supported with citations. It is quite understandable that the individual does not remember or archive everything he reads, but as that is the case, he is not in a position to make such an assertion.
You see, I beg to disagree..., and here is why:
One of the key criticisms of the Internet is that it promulgates more fiction, errors, and lies than facts and truth. Some you can debunk with solid engineering expertise, some you can't, because they are 'urban myth', which can't be traced back to the original facts.
Brian's article has the same 'fiction', discernibly caused by his limits with foreign languages. And while it was originally a magazine article, it's now on the internet, part of the huge pile of half-truth. And to curtail such half-truth I will continue to name it where I find it.
And as this is not a court, I will not enter into any discussion as to why I call it fiction. I've seen the evidence, and that's good enough for me. If that it is not good enough for you, tough luck as it is not my problem. The evidence is out there, so be my guest, go and find it, and look at it yourself. If I can do it, you can too (provided you speak the language, of course). I do NOT own a justification in any form for these statements.
The other aspect is, of course, that there is no absolute truth, and a mere translation from one language to another alters the truth as terms are not identical across all languages. Thus, anything put into writing, but all the more so where translated, is fiction to some extend. :laugh:
And if you want to call me liar, be my guest, just another bit on the pile of internet fiction. :laugh:
I explained why his request is completely unreasonable, and not one of you has advanced an even half-practicable solution that would suggest his request is technically feasible. So, whatever you say, it's unreasonable because it's not practicable. ::)
Food for thought
Waldschrat
It is not for us to provide you with anything so please do not try to deflect Brian's request in that way. You are the one who made the accusation that his writings are incorrect therefore the onus is on you to provide the evidence.
If you choose not to that is your choice but we can then only draw one conclusion and that is that Brian's accounts are correct as we have no evidence to contradict that view .
There's an old English saying that summarises this discussion well:
"Put up or shut up"
Can you please take this discussion to PM please! This is not the place for personal arguments!
Admin and Mods
Waldschrats has cast doubt on the accuracy of the Egger-Bahn / Jouef articles researched and written in good faith by Brian and which were published over a number of months in 009 News. It is alleged by Waldschrat there is some fiction in these articles which he is unable or unwilling to substantiate and rather than be brushed under the carpet into PMs I would argue it behoves the accuser to publicly prove his point or apologise to Brian for publicly casting assertions on the accuracy of his work.
Currently, as things stand if this was a court of law Waldschrat would be laughed out of court and Brian would be exonerated. Brian's good name is at stake here and Waldschrat should either be much more helpful in pointing us in the direction of where his evidence lies or he should apologise to Brian for alleging his work is partly fiction. As Blair puts it and as I nearly put it in an earlier email Waldschrat should put up or shut up and you may wish to consider barring him from this forum until he either does put up or apologises.
I would also add that the reputation of the 009 News is also at stake here for publishing Brian's work as a piece of serious research when according to Waldschrat it is partly a work of fiction.
Malcolm
I have locked this topic because of the unacceptable comments .
Waldschrat / Leprechaun has been issued with a warning.
I am considering deleting the whole topic.
Garry Whiting
Content Moderator