Egger Bahn wheels

[Peter Richardson]

I bought a few Egger Bahn goods vans but have found the wheels are very loose
In their fittings. You can move them up and down by about 1-2mm and as a result the wheels are rubbing against the top of the axle casing which doesn't give a particularly
Smooth run!  Can anyone suggest a solution?  Many thanks.

[Stefan Krebs]

The axles are typically loose in their bearings, intentionally to minimise derailments. However, they normally do not rub against the chassis.
Two possible reasons for that:
1. Bend chassis.
2. Worn out bearing cup in the axle boxes.

To recognise the first check whether the chassis floor is flat, and whether the axle boxes are at right angle to the floor (might have to remove the axle for that). One quite common cause for bend chassis is the application of glue (adding ballast etc.), one common cause for bend axle boxes is removing axles (if that's a hint).
Straightening bend chassis can be tricky, your best shoot is a 2mm steel sheet cut to shape covering most of the floor,  and glued inside the body with contact glue (UHU; Evostick, etc.). The floor might have to be levelled.
Bend axleboxes need bending back with care (Requires axle removal).

Best fix for worn out bearing cups is installing brass bearing cups...

The cut-all-corners solution is installing modern wheels with smaller flanges, a big nono for the collector.
The other sticky-plaster solution is to shim the axle boxes with a washer on the retainer pin, between the chassis. and the axle subframe.

Hope this helps
Waldschrat

[Stephen Rainsbury]

I bought a few Egger Bahn goods vans but have found the wheels are very loose
In their fittings. You can move them up and down by about 1-2mm and as a result the wheels are rubbing against the top of the axle casing which doesn't give a particularly
Smooth run!  Can anyone suggest a solution?  Many thanks.

I second the brass bearing cups, which are available from Dundas here.
https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/category/511-dundas-models-009-wheels-bearings
Stephen

[B.Meldon]

Unfortunately, many of these wagons have this same problem.
This is one of the Jouef French made versions of the Egger van made between 1968 and 1971. Jouef used larger grey plastic insulators in the middle of the wheels that can, and often do, rub on the bogie pivot. Also, the bogie pivots were often not pushed in fully at the factory causing the axle to rub on the surface of the bogie pivot. This makes them run poorly, it is very common on these Jouef made vans and coaches and is all down to the very poor-quality control at the factory.

In addition, the one axle bogies are hopeless when propelling as they just turn to one side and can then de-rail in the points!

There are solutions:

If you have a minimum radius of 12 inch and only have 18-inch reverse curves you can remove the pivot and fix the bogies in the central position. However, this will not work on curves under 12 inch or in 12-inch reverse curves.
(It also only works with the Egger coaches and vans with the wider couplings made from about 1966.)

If you have smaller curves and/or 12-inch reverse curves then the bogies cannot be fixed in place because the couplings will jam.

The next solution is to remove the bogie pivot, but it will probably snap off in the wagon chassis, re-drill the pivot hole, add a new pin to the plastic pivot and ensure that it is pushed in further than before so the axle does not rub on it. (I have a box of the Egger bogie pivots reclaimed from vehicles that have had their bogies changed or have been re-built into longer vehicles, but obvioulsy this is not an optioin for most people.)
You can also remove the wheels from the axles and file down the back surface of the oversized wheel insulators.

However, you will still have the issue with the bogie twisting when the vehicle is propelled.

In short these bogies were a poor design from new in 1964 made worse by Jouef with the oversize wheel insulators and very poor-quality control from 1968 to 1971.

I do have a lot of these. Over the years I have invisible repaired any that had this problem, or have replaced them with others that do not,  but when running them on my layout when I have 'Egger days' I always use a small bit of blutack to hold the bogies centrally, but I can do this as I have wide enough curves.
I also have a few that have been modified for use on Meanderbahn with its 9-inch curves and these all have had the bogies replaced with two axle Roco log bolster bogies.

Brian Meldon

[JulienW]

Just to avoid confusion the better ones to get for the Egger chassis may be the "N Gauge Brass Bearing Cups (20) DP09" as the Romford ones may well be too deep and you'll end up with the outside face of the wheel rubbing on the inside face of the bearing, possibly before the pin on the end of the axle has 'bottomed out' in the cup.

To fit them you'll need to drill out the dimples in the Egger moulding from the inside which is a little awkward, and I'd also caution that you need to get it right - if you don't drill deep enough and the axle will be tight leading to poor running, drill out too much and you'll be back where our started with sloppy axles and poor running.

[Hobby]

Just out of interest would coupling the two "bogies" together with something elastic to "centre" them not work to prevent any issues when pushing them?

[B.Meldon]

Just out of interest would coupling the two "bogies" together with something elastic to "centre" them not work to prevent any issues when pushing them?

I do not think in practice it would work. It would have to be very week in strength so that the pressure on the coupling would still turn the bogie but strong enough, so the bogie self-centralises when being pushed.  But some experiments would be needed to prove this either way.
I use a tiny bit of foam rubber wither side to centralise swinging couplings, and it works well. But that would not be practical on the Egger vans and coach bogies.
Just for an example the long plastic 'tail' on the Liliput van and coach couplings is too strong and the vehicles will derail before the coupling turns.

Brian Meldon

[Stefan Krebs]

I'm a bit confused here. Brian talks about wheel insulation rubbing on the pivot pin head. Re-reading the original question I can't tally the two, the question was about wheels rubbing against the chassis, or was it?

Anyway, while I second Stephen that that brass bearing cups are the preferred solution for repairing worn bearings, I suggest first things first: identify the problem, i.e. check the bogie isn't broken or warped. Fix any such defects before contemplating other fixes.

Essentially, brass bearing cups come in 3 versions, stamped sheet material, turned stock with or without flange. The flanged version are easiest to align, but the stamped sheet cups are the thinnest, i.e. require the least drilling. While a drill bit may be used, it is tricky as you can't square it to the indent in the plastic, unless you cut it to fit between the axle boxes; at which point you'll struggle to grab it and turn it. But for the stamped metal cups a ball-shaped dental mill bit of appropriate size may be used.

As you mention that the axle is very loose, it is unlikely a lot of grinding will be needed. Use a bristle from a brush, cut to length of the axle, to check depth. 2-component glue like Araldite allows adjustment during setting and compensates for inaccuracies.

I find the swivel of the bogie is limited enough not to cause grief when pushing those vehicles, even after fitting Romford axles and wheels. Try straight-spoked ones, I find them a vast improvement in appearance.



Cheers
Waldschrat
 

[Peter Richardson]

Many thanks for taking the time to respond and give such detailed advice.  As a newcomer to 009, I really appreciate this!  I have ordered a set of brass bearing cups from Dundas this afternoon and will see if they may help.

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Many thanks for taking the time to respond and give such detailed advice.  As a newcomer to 009, I really appreciate this!  I have ordered a set of brass bearing cups from Dundas this afternoon and will see if they may help.

That's the one I use (see above) In theory these should just push in, but mine didn't so I had to open them up slightly with a drill bit in a pin vice. Sorry I don't know the size, I tried several from my stand until I found one that worked and didn't look at the diameter. 
I really like the difference and plan to retrofit most of my kit with them.
Stephen

[Stefan Krebs]

On second thoughts, Brian, you make me wonder, because you say it's a systemic issue with certain Eggerbahn vehicles produced by Jouef: could it be that Jouef used their own line of axles and these are a little bit shorter than the genuine Eggerbahn ones (which look like they came from Mehanotechnica or Lima)?
My Jouef Eggerbahn stuff is of uncertain pedigree, so I can't check.
What I can confirm is that on the Jpuef Decauville skips the flanges grind on the skip, so maybe the Jouef designers had a problem with tolerances and wear & tear anyway?
Ronford curved spoke wheels enhance their appearance markedly anyway.   :laugh:



Just wondering
Waldschrat

[Peter Richardson]

If the original Jouef/Egger Bahn wheel sets don't run well with the new brass bearing cups, I will try new wheel sets.  Any advice on where the Romford spoked wheels mentioned, can be obtained? Also, what diameter is required?  Many thanks! Peter

[B.Meldon]

On second thoughts, Brian, you make me wonder, because you say it's a systemic issue with certain Eggerbahn vehicles produced by Jouef: could it be that Jouef used their own line of axles and these are a little bit shorter than the genuine Eggerbahn ones (which look like they came from Mehanotechnica or Lima)?
My Jouef Eggerbahn stuff is of uncertain pedigree, so I can't check.
What I can confirm is that on the Jpuef Decauville skips the flanges grind on the skip, so maybe the Jouef designers had a problem with tolerances and wear & tear anyway?
...........................
Waldschrat

Lots in that worth responding to! But some is a bit off topic.

You can tell the difference by looking at the plastic insulators in the middle of the wheels:
The larger grey plastic insulators were used by Jouef from 1968 to 1971.
The smaller transparent plastic insulators were used by Egger-bahn up to 1968.
(The Jouef axles are also slightly thicker.)

The Mehanotechnica and Lima axles are not the same as those used by Egger-bahn or Jouef.  If they did come from these makers they were made specially for Egger-bahn and Jouef, and I doubt that. (The Egger tram coach bogies and wheels, and probably the entire coach, did come from Lima.)

The Jouef V skips were a bit of a disaster in terms of their design! The idea was they were supposed to be operating wagons that could be loaded and later tipped out on the layout. Much like the Minitrix N gauge V skip wagons that predate the Jouef items by about a year. However, it was soon discovered that any track side tipping mechanism would either have to be quite complicated or it would hit on the side of the coaches and the loco! Not only that but loading the wagons from a shoot from above that needed to clear the loco cab with the lighter material required so the loco could pull them caused the material to go all over the place! The wheel flanges fouling on the side of the V section was a design feature intended to both hold the wagon in position on the track when fully tipped and to hold the V section in the tipped position with the wheel flanges between groves on the side of the V section. Again, this was a poor design and all that happens is that the V section gets scratch marks from the wheels!
Jouef made several other errors with the design of their H0e range as follows:
The melting and cracking loco tank sides, later modified with a raised name plate to make the tank side stronger. 
The end of the toast rack coach steps that were too thin and would snap, later modified with a thicker end to the steps.
The log wagons with real wood logs that would not sit on the track with both bogies flat, later modified with plastic logs.
The original points that were made with the motors too near the track so the coach step would hit them, soon modified so the motors were further away. 
There were also the buffer stops that were near useless bits of orange plastic that came in the box with the points.
All in all, the Jouef H0e range was a bit of a design disaster!
The exception is the toast rack coach that is a very clever bit of design, but even this has a fault as the planking on the underside of the roof is moulded in the negative with ridges between the planks where there should be groves. (But hardly anyone notices this error!)

[JulienW]

If the original Jouef/Egger Bahn wheel sets don't run well with the new brass bearing cups, I will try new wheel sets.  Any advice on where the Romford spoked wheels mentioned, can be obtained? Also, what diameter is required?  Many thanks! Peter

I'm not sure if they are made by Romford but Dundas Models supply a good range of 9 mm gauge wheelsets. I suspect that the best starting point would be whatever diameter matches those currently on the Egger Van.

[Peter Richardson]

That's brilliant. Brass cups should arrive today so if I have no joy I will try Dundas again for the wheels.  I love the appearance of these box vans and the veranda coaches so am willing to replace wheels too, in order to get them running smoothly.

Thanks for all the information and advice on this.

Peter