Hi All
For the standard gauge part of "High Water", I've made a 'bog-standard' Ratio semaphore signal to use as a station starter. This seems to be in keeping with prototype practice (as far as I can see anyway).
However, for the NG line (009) I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do - if anything at all ? Coming up the grade from the fiddle yard, the line crosses a truss bridge, where it divides into a station approach and a goods siding. There is a dedicated platform at the station and the goods siding is also served by a separate rope-worked incline.
Does the NG line 'need' a grading post (not strictly signalling I know) and anything 'proper' signal-wise ? There will probably be a wagon turntable intersecting the goods siding at some future point...(ground signal maybe ?).
Thanks for any help,
Dave
IMHO this depends on the Rules of your railway.
No apparent signalling can be just as valid as a major full-blown interlocking.
I would suggest as a minimum safety system One Engine in Steam (OES) would be implemented. I.e. one train is in a section at a time.
Drivers approaching would need to have an appropriate speed. So maybe a fixed distant. A home signal some way out side of the station limits that would hold incoming traffic whist shunting is occurring with in the station is a possibility. Some kind of route indication MAYBE provided.
Departing trains should be in possession of the authority to proceed (staff, ticket, token,whatever) a starter signal maybe appropriate.
How you model this is your choice.
Grade indications are optional, if your railway is using regular drivers little notice would be taken of them. When it comes to route learning they play an important role.
If you were to be modelling a prototype you would follow it's rules.
Andy
Hi Andy - thanks for the reply.
As the layout is DC based (and fictitious), I'm planning to use platform /siding 'dead-ends' where a loco can be held whilst another is brought up to take a train out. The main reason being lack of space for run-round loops etc. Is this consistent with block /section operation ? Perhaps a man with a flag would do this on an NG line...I think I've seen something similar on the Tal-y-Llyn ?
I'm not too bothered about following prototype practice exactly, but, it would be nice to introduce a 'correct flavour' here and there. The distance from the fiddle yard to the station is quite short, so, I'm not sure about a fixed 'Distant', however, a station starter sounds good. Also, I think a grade post would add atmosphere (about 1 in 53 in my case).
Any thoughts on mechanical ground signals - I'm think here of a possible wagon turntable /siding conflict, or, is this where a fixed distant, set "on", would give sufficient warning ?
One final point, what about signal post height in 4mm scale ? Surely less than for standard gauge, but just above cab height maybe for 009 ?
Dave
I will be following this thread keenly.
Apart from deciding about rules and procedures, have you got a design or found a kit or something for the ground signal? I'm going to want some.
Hi Tom - nothing definite at the moment...
One idea is to have a white disc with a red bar across it. The red bar would be horizontal ("Stop") when the wagon turntable is 'against' the main siding, and "Off" - bar at 45 degrees when the siding is clear. (Sort of mimicking a conventional semaphore signal).
Another thought was to site the disc /ground signal near the w/turntable so that it drives the disc round via nylon spur /crown-wheel gears. I believe you can get a selection of these from China at quite low cost : quarter turn of the t/table rotates the disc through one-eighth and back again. Haven't fully thought this one through yet as I'm still working out mechanical linkages for the points !
Will keep you posted if I find a kit, or, some other suitable starting point.
Dave
Hi
I think a working ground signal protecting the turntable would be a neat idea. Especially if it worked with the table. If modern day, it could be coloured light. Small LEDs?
Shunting in the station limits is out side of the block section, so yes a flag signal could be used. An animated figure out of a (signal box?) window or door? Have a search for Ted Polets hand signaller at Dunalistair.
Craigcorrie & Dunalistair Railway
www.009dutch.nl
Thanks for the further info' /link Andy. I was looking at Ted's Youtube footage yesterday but didn't see any hand-signalling. I'll study more closely next time !
Some further thoughts on the ground signal idea : At the base of the turntable (possibly below baseboard level), is attached a 'crownwheel' gear with the teeth pointing downwards. This then drives a spur gear and shaft to link to the signal disc. At the disc a further spur gear (or two), would rotate it at half speed (2:1 gearing). Short horizontal /vertical shaft supports may be necessary to make this work. Piano wire running in plastic blocks should suffice as there should be very little friction.
Coloured 'window' arcs could be cut into the disc if you want LEDs to shine through.
Hi
When suggesting LEDs I was more thinking of a solid state solution.
The Flagman at Dunalistair.
Took me a while to track him down (pun intended). Ted Polet describes him in the thread
Reconstruction work at Dunalistair http://www.009society.com/forum/index.php?topic=1074.msg6227#msg6227 page 5, scroll right through the page, he meets with an accident!
.
Andy
I think either LED solution would work, probably dependant on the period being modelled ?
Signal /flagman is very cool ! Haven't read the whole thread yet but looks like there's a lot of good learning there...
Dave
Signal post height: whatever is required, I imagine, to ensure the signal will be as clearly visible as possible to an oncoming train. I guess that means high enough off the ground to be clear of foliage, stray animals, etc. and to be seen over the crest of an incline, but not higher than is necessary as the taller it is the more liable to blow over and the more support (stay wires, etc) would be needed. A low primary arm with a very tall repeater arm would be fun but probably not appropriate on an n-g line! I imagine sighting boards, behind the arm, while fun to make might also be rare on such lines (though I'm sure someone will be able to come up with a prototype example somewhere).
In any case it's probably best to avoid any 'standard' height unless it's a very smart quasi-mainline sort of railway - most narrow gauge items tended to be one-offs tailored to suit the precise local requirements (and probably made out of redundant scrap items like old rail and timbers, rather than fancy lattice-work, to save cash).
David.
Hi David - yes, mine's definitely a budget job although, I was initially thinking of a cut-down standard gauge one as there are a few 'spares' on another part of the layout.
I take the point about being visible just cresting the incline - will have to think about the best sighting for this as there is a truss bridge immediately afterward. What's your view on linking it to a nearby point ? Just at the top of the grade, the line divides into NG platform and siding roads...I wonder if a dual-arm (junction ?) signal would be appropriate - indications dependent on point setting perhaps. The point will be operated by a mechanical bell-crank, so, a link to a nearby signal set-up should also be possible.
Dave
I'm certainly no signalling expert, but if you're going to signal trains into the station area then maybe you also need to think about signalling movements in the opposite direction, e.g. a starting signal for the platform road and maybe ground signals or similar for the sidings. (This could get complicated - which may or may not appeal, depending on how much you like signals!)
David.
Yes, in fact we discussed station starters and ground signals earlier in the thread - all good ideas....I think I will be starting with something simple and then slowly progress to something automated.
This will probably be a simple ground signal coupled to the wagon turntable. I quite like the idea of a link between signal and point as well (less for me to remember !). The station starter will be manual. All the 'linked' signals will have some form of mechanical coupling - at least, that's the plan.
Dave
I'm a little(!) late to this topic but I hope the following comments will be useful (and hopefully not too confusing!)
The main considerations for the signalling will depend on the traffic level expected, the supposed opening date of your railway, the supposed current date of your layout and whether you are depicting a preserved railway or not.
The earlier the date of your layout's opening the more likely the simpler the signalling will be; unless traffic levels (like on the Ffestiniog Railway) increase requiring the signalling to be updated.
Until the 1896 Light Railways Act all passenger carrying were treated the same so far as signalling was concerned.
Light Railways (from 1896) had simplified signalling, usually without subsidiary or ground signals. Devils Bridge sometimes had three trains in the station at one time but the only signalling was an Home Signal, that applied to the arrival road and a starting signal that applied to the departure road.
A train would arrive at the arrival road, the loco then ran round and then shunted its train to the departure road leaving the arrival road free for the next arrival.
Trains from the former goods siding were apparently hand signalled away.
If the line was worked with one engine in steam (or two coupled together) only the home signal was required, to protect the station, possession of the token (staff or tablet) was the Drivers authority to proceed.
When more than one engine in steam then the starting signal was also required.
The height of signals depended on the Driver's view of the signal and home signal were usually taller than the starting signal. With light railways, if the home signal could be seen for at least one quarter of a mile the a distant signal was not required.
If the points and signals were not worked from a central point then the points in the running line would be locked in the correct position for the safety of the train, usually by padlock, with a key on the token/staff/tablet.
The area of the railway in the station limits would be under the control of the Station Master and (referring to the last post) the wagon turntable would be unlikely to have any form of associated signalling. If the wagon turntable is in the running line then it would be locked in the correct position until released by the token.
Preserved railways tend to be more comprehensively signalled than the same layout on a commercial railway due to the availability of enthusiastic volunteers.
Quote from: FSKeith on April 29, 2020, 21:27Preserved railways tend to be more comprehensively signalled than the same layout on a commercial railway due to the availability of enthusiastic volunteers.
And plenty of secondhand equipment!
Just as a guide, the era is end of steam /beginning of diesel (1950's ish ?).
Only two locos in use at present - 1 steam (0-6-0) and 1 diesel shunter. The station is 'split-level and shared' with the SG line. The NG traffic taking the upper level, and having it's own platform...
Traffic is light with a morning /evening passenger train (must get some coaches !). Goods traffic comes from the fiddle yard and from the canal - via a rope-worked incline. Goods has to be carefully managed as there is only one siding, although the station road is sometimes used during busy periods. There is side access to the siding via the wagon turntable.
Ideally, I would like signalling to be simple yet comprehensive (I must admit though that planning hasn't got much further than a station starter at present).
All ideas welcome,
Dave
Quote from: FSKeith on April 29, 2020, 21:27Preserved railways tend to be more comprehensively signalled than the same layout on a commercial railway due to the availability of enthusiastic volunteers.
I'd have said "over signalled" rather than comprehensively. For me it spoils the whole concept of narrow gauge in GB. If i wanted to see full signalling I can go to Worcester Shrub Hill, if I go to a British NG line I don't want my view impeded by lots of signal posts, rodding, wiring, etc. It's not Clapham Junction, it's a quiet rural narrow gauge line, it doesn't need all those damn signals!
Interesting point Blair.
I'm leaning towards the 'minimalist' approach too... perhaps a station starter on a post not much higher than cab level.
For the goods siding, either a ground signal (eg rotary disc type) and /or a 'man-with-a-flag' a bit like Ted Polet's little chap...
Regards,
Dave
One thing I've noticed about signals is that on NG railways, they're there but not so obvious as they are on SG Railways. So on my layout I've gone for a very minimalist approach with disk & bar signals only at the converging side of junctions.
It rather depends on the prototype and sometimes what is needed to safely control movements. At one extreme you have the Welshpool where a starter signal is all that is deemed necessary, together with a fixed distant and stop signal to control entry into the two terminus stations. Contrast that with the FR/WHR station at Portmadog or the South Tynedale where much more complicated signalling is required as the line in one direction has a major "interface" with a main road.
Most NG even in preservation guise don't tend to use ground/shunting signals, though, most shunting being done with the verbals understanding between the driver, guard and signaller without any need for fixed signals. Sometimes, when a shunt is likely to take the train beyond the station limits and fixed signal may be used to authorise the move, though it's quite rare.
Personally, if I was to use fixed signals I'd stick to the basics, a distant and stop to protect the entrance to the station and starter(s) for departure. One other thing, and something which I think the South Tynedale got right, use smaller signals and not full sized ones! I believe they are ex post mounted shunting signals! I suppose if you couldn't get any in model form you could use TT or N big 'uns! ;)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QzSrtiP-VHOnyp131q14RJYuIAW2q8AkoItjy2EH0Vq9d_sOfVSyXStSU78SbdtvGeRTPyvyyQK2SyLz8zyhP0F8xmvrMUgBTajDsXmASVC-iZZkiBxiaYX6pWxo6TiugnPkmyhU0iRIc1JGbytwF6qpEgGfBitLnC7h8jAnCNZJkX-NOYRCrUP5BnqMs8FiqXTrBip3tDgSKQc
I found the book "Signalling in the age of steam" by Michael Vanns very useful.
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Signalling_in_the_Age_of_Steam.html?id=D-ifpwAACAAJ&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y (https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Signalling_in_the_Age_of_Steam.html?id=D-ifpwAACAAJ&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y)
I'm not sure if it was in that book where it was put that railway signals can be thought to work the opposite way round to traffic lights. Traffic lights tell drivers to stop whereas railway signals indicate whether the way ahead is clear and it is safe to proceed, at least in the British block way of operation. On standard gauge single line working, tokens were sometimes used. I remember seeing the token being passed, in its leather pouch, on the Aberdeen to Inverness line. I think they changed to electric wireless tokens sometime around 2014.
I don't know if NG railways used token operation. Anyone know?
It is pure guesswork on my part, but I can imagine an arrangement with a mechanical token machine at an unattended passing loop where trains could only pass if the crew were were able to insert the appropriate token into a lock to allow them to change the points to exit the loop and proceed.
The F&WHR use tokens (electric train staff) and so I suspect do most other NG railways.
Sadly Blair - got an "error 403" for your link. Something to do with permissions ?
Thanks to all for the very useful views and information on full-size NG practice. I think I've seen/ridden on most now except the Tal-y-llyn which is next on the list when I'm allowed to visit Wales that is....(as a Swansea boy, I strongly object to the government excluding me !!!).
Regards,
Dave
Quote from: Peter Boulter on June 14, 2020, 11:59
The F&WHR use tokens (electric train staff) and so I suspect do most other NG railways.
Many use radios to control movements which is the modern equivalent of telephone control. Also many use one engine in steam!!
For that photo just do a Google image search for South Tynedale Station and you will see an image of the signals.