HLR Ratiobash fleet

[invercloy]

Taken from the Isle Ornsay thread to allow that to continue purely with layout construction as opposed to stock...

I've been working on some new carriages for Isle Ornsay, based on MickT's principals of ratiobashing which he has outlined in the News on a couple of occasions.

This is how the collection stands at present:



I'm off to Barton le Clay this coming weekend to help man the Narrow Planet stand - is anyone else going?

Tom, this collection looks excellent - well done!  It does make me wish that I'd got a larger loading gauge for the L&TR though!  Mick's work on Ratio coaches is truly excellent and along with the articles in the News is splendidly inspirational.  Will you be using a two-colour livery?

I must finish that rake of new coaches which has been half-built for far too long...

On the other matter, yes - it might be an idea if you transferred this thread to the Rolling Stock section!

Sadly it's unlikely that I'll get to Barton on Sunday.

Thanks David,  they are heavily inspired by L&LSR carriages. 

I won't be using a two tone livery, the reason being that, in the documents I found for the HLR at the National Archives in Kew, it suggests that the stock would have been provided and operated by the North British Railway.  So all stock will carry NBR livery.  Locos olivey green (no one seems to know the definitive colour and it changed quite a lot), carriages are maroon with gold lettering and vermillion end panels, and goods stock brown or grey depending on the item.

As they say on Blue Peter, here's one I prepared earlier:



This should give a fair indication of how the batch I'm working on at present should look when complete.  They should have gold lining around all the panelling, but I'm not that brave!  The main colour is Citadel Colour (Games workshop) scab red, I love using these paints as they're so easy to work with.

[Tigger]

Oh very nice indeed Tom!  Well done.  Yes, as you say, the NBR livery was at best variable!  It wasn't unknown to find a loco in a different shade of green from its tender!

[invercloy]

Thanks David.  I've managed to find a decent approximation of NBR loco green (or at least a good representation of at least one shade that was used around the period I'm modelling) by mixing two Citadel Colour paints 50/50.  When I get a 'mainline' loco ready to paint I'll put more details in a thread on here.

[Tigger]

That sounds like a good plan.  It also means you can mix it 60/40, 70/30 etc etc to get an authentic variety of NBR loco green!!  ;D

[tedp]

Now I will be playing devil's advocate for a change. How authentic can you make NBR green since there are no colour photos of the original thing? Even the remaining NBR 0-6-0 that is or was in the Glasgow museum may or may not have been in the correct shade. Old paint surfaces recovered during restoration of old stock?

I think any close approximation will do.  ;)

Otherwise, excellent modelling, Tom. And I like the dark red brake, as I said in the other forum!

[invercloy]

Absolutely, Ted, it's been difficult. Apparently all the NBR locos still about are either the wrong colour from their restoration onwards, or are in a different livery.

I just used paintings and postcards of what I could to find a colour that's close enough for me, and easy to mix. I'll probably get told its wrong by A. Nasal of Tunbridge Wells at an exhibition, but it'll be difficult to prove any colour of NBR locos is right or wrong, so i don't mind ;)

[Cambridge Paul]

Over the colour issue, fear not

[tedp]

Yes, I think weathering plays its part as well, probably even more than subtle differences in the original colour. I don't think we should worry too much, as long as the colour we use is close to what the prototype is thought to have been.

[MickT]

Total distraction but sort of relevant I think............
I'm quite keen on red & cream as a coach livery as some already know (!). Although my evolved final coach livery is quite different from the Donegal colours, being more akin to Isle of Man in the red actually, I have collected lots of colour photos etc of the Donegal and models of the Donegal so like most, I have a fair idea implanted in my brain as to what "geranium red & cream" looks like.

So, when I visited Donegal for the first time in 2009, I was very surprised to see restored railcar trailer number 5 body outside Donegal station in what I can best describe as geranium red and yellow or ochre rather than cream. When I mentioned this to a member of CDRRL who was present he was absolutely adamant that the yellow colour was correct as according to him that was the colour that all Donegal railcars and coaches etc took on due to the "soft" atmospheric conditions and the smoke from peat fires. This is not a wind up - this was told to me in all seriousness.

The colour does not match any photos I have seen nor does it match the colour of railcar 18 that runs on the preserved Finn Valley but it does show that colour is a very subjective thing and if somebody who lives locally and has an indelible personal memory of what a particular colour was in real life some 60 years or more ago, then there is no convincing that person that his memory may be slightly distorted!

Back to Tom's thread subject!

Mick

[Tigger]

"...close to what the prototype is thought to have been."

What a lovely get-out Ted!  :)

To follow Mick's drift a little, I believe the true GWR 'cream' was far closer to white that we imagine and the varnish discoloured similarly to 'cream' fairly rapidly.  The rake of GWR clerestories I built back in 1979 used a very yellowish Humbrol 'cream'.  It might not be right but it looks lovely!

NOW back to Tom's thread!!

I agree with Ted - what happened in the paint shops was nothing to what the atmosphere did within weeks of going into service.  Anything 'sort-of-roundabout-there-ish' would be about right and in the event weathering would probably even out many of the vaguaries from the paint shop anyway!

[invercloy]

Back to Tom's thread subject!

NOW back to Tom's thread!!

Not a problem, gentlemen, it's all intersting stuff.  I think as long as it looks "right" then I'll be happy.  I've done a few test swatches of the paints for locos, carriages and wagons on a sheet of foamboard to check I'm happy with them and they all look ok on there.  It was backed with the same colour primer I always use too, so the colours there should transfer well to the models.

As to paint finish, these carriages will be around 12 years old as shown on the model, so will exhibit the beginnings of being weathered - i.e. still being kept wiped down with a cloth, but not pristinely clean, like the painted example I have shown above.  The finish on that was achieved using Mig weathering powders and washes, very effective stuff.

No more progress on the fleet, I've run out of some materials, but I'm hoping to get cracking on building the final board of Isle Ornsay over the next few days, so once that's progressed a decent amount I'll go back and continue these.

[pilotfriend]

I am very sorry Tom, but while well executed, I find Ratio bashed NG coaches entirely unconvincing. I know of no NG British coaches with the ratio of window to waist height to lower panel even near that of a bashed Ratio coach.

I realise that these fora will 'jolly' you along but I sincerely hope that you will consider replacing the fleet when you are able. There are so many appropriate etched sides available on the market.

IMO, Ratio bashes are as bad as Pugbashes! 8)

You seem to be doing everything else right at present.
best
JdF

[tedp]

Having read John's qualification of Ratiobashes, I decided to check. The following list gives measurements taken with my plastic school ruler, of lower and waist panel height, window height and top panel height (including ventilators). I took them from Ratio sides and photos in various publications, not correcting for camera distortion or possible inaccuracy of the ruler ;D.

The results were as follows (lower-window-top).

Ratio: 11-11-3
Swilly: 13-12-3
Donegal: 14-14-3
Ballycastle: 12-11-3
Festiniog: 15-11-2
L&B: 12-7-2

From this incomplete survey it would seem that the midget 2ft gauge railways stock has different ratios for the lower-window-top size from 3ft gauge stock. The windows are much smaller.

As Tom is building a 2ft6ins gauge railway, the stock of which usually was considerably bigger than 2ft gauge stock, and as 3ft gauge coaching stock was usually rather smaller than the track gauge would allow (look at the size of engines), I would say a Ratio bash is perfectly all right for what he is doing.

Furthermore, I'm not sure we are jollying Tom along. It seems he is doing all right on his own. Sorry to differ, John.  ;)

[invercloy]

I am very sorry Tom, but while well executed, I find Ratio bashed NG coaches entirely unconvincing. I know of no NG British coaches with the ratio of window to waist height to lower panel even near that of a bashed Ratio coach.

Don't tell me, you think they will set 009 back to the 1970s?!  Well I have to say that I disagree, John, sorry.  They're appropriate for the type of line I'm modelling.  Look at a carriage from the L&LSR, then look at the ones I'm working on.  Now add an L&B one into the mix, they're too small.  As Ted has mentioned I'm modelling 2'6", so the proportions appear right to me.

However, I will remind you of something you said on NGRM.  In the Ratiobash thread on there you made a similar point, but when shown Mick T's own Ratiobashes you conceded that they looked good (rightly so), since mine are based on the same principals, and very similar dimensions, I fail to see what is different.

I realise that these fora will 'jolly' you along but I sincerely hope that you will consider replacing the fleet when you are able. There are so many appropriate etched sides available on the market.

I certainly have no intention of replacing them, I've enjoyed the work I have done to date, and will enjoy finishing them.  There are many etched sides, but I want to build my own thing, and cutting and splicing ratio sides has allowed me to create something a little different from using a brass kit anyone can go out and buy. 

Furthermore I wouldn't expect the forum to 'jolly me along', I don't use the forums to feed an ego, I'm sharing my work with likeminded folk.  I'd apply what has been said on many internet forums before, if you don't like it, don't read it.

IMO, Ratio bashes are as bad as Pugbashes! 8)

Enough said.

You seem to be doing everything else right at present.

But there's always time for me to do something wrong?  :P

Having read John's qualification of Ratiobashes, I decided to check. The following list gives measurements taken with my plastic school ruler, of lower and waist panel height, window height and top panel height (including ventilators). I took them from Ratio sides and photos in various publications, not correcting for camera distortion or possible inaccuracy of the ruler ;D.

The results were as follows (lower-window-top).

Ratio: 11-11-3
Swilly: 13-12-3
Donegal: 14-14-3
Ballycastle: 12-11-3
Festiniog: 15-11-2
L&B: 12-7-2

From this incomplete survey it would seem that the midget 2ft gauge railways stock has different ratios for the lower-window-top size from 3ft gauge stock. The windows are much smaller.

As Tom is building a 2ft6ins gauge railway, the stock of which usually was considerably bigger than 2ft gauge stock, and as 3ft gauge coaching stock was usually rather smaller than the track gauge would allow (look at the size of engines), I would say a Ratio bash is perfectly all right for what he is doing.

Furthermore, I'm not sure we are jollying Tom along. It seems he is doing all right on his own. Sorry to differ, John.  ;)

Thanks Ted  ;D

[rhobat bryn]

When I first came across your Isle Ornsay website, it was one of the most imaginative projects I have ever come across in narrow gauge modelling.  Unlike many other fictitious layouts which tend to be a conglomerate of familiar features, yours is based on a genuine what-might-have-been railway based on thorough historical research.  What is inspiring about your layout is that it combines good quality modelling skills with a clear sense of proportion and taste.  I for one am looking forward to going to Sparsholt this year for the opportunity of seeing what progress you have made and with a view to being inspired to realise my own vision with the same enthusiasm and commitment that you have shown in yours.  I do not have the technical knowledge to decide whether certain ratios are representative or not, though I think Ted makes a very powerful and persuasive case based on fact.  However in situations like these, I am reminded of what Duke Ellington, the famous jazz pianist, said when asked what he considered to be good music.  "If it sounds good", he replied, "it is good."

Need we say more?