RTR Loco

[garrywhiting]

Try This http://www.model-railway.co.uk/news/index.shtml
They are complete and RTR locos based around a RTR N gauge chassis and body.

Apologies Darren.  In all the sound and fury of getting my own thoughts out of my system, I overlooked the significance of your post: an RTR diesel on sale for

[pilotfriend]

[rhobat bryn]

 :laugh:  It's the way you tell 'em!

[rhobat bryn]

uote author=garrywhiting link=topic=728.msg3197#msg3197 date=1322113695]
But, yet again this is a "micro" cottage industry, with perhaps one or two in stock and any further examples only being built to order, The version of the diesel on the Bachmann chassis could sell out quickly, as a continuous supply of this chassis cannot be sustained.
[/quote]

I agree that this is a micro-cottage industry run by 'artisan craftsmen' as was previously stated.  And if I understand you correctly you imply that this will always be an extremely small niche market with enough occasional purchases for it to emerge only every now and again.  You may well be right.  I have no answer to that point since I have no evidence to the contrary.  However there was a time in the not too distant past when there were no 009 kits to be had.  Someone presumably decided that making a 009 kit would be a good idea because it would be easier for people to have the locos they wanted running on their railway rather than having to scratchbuild them for themselves, since that is a particularly elite skill.

This discussion started because it was felt that not having an RTR model available was a barrier for people wanting to enter the hobby but who didn't possess the necessary modelling skills to do so.  The question therefore was, and still is, is it possible to solve this problem?

However the point you make and was also made by Brian is that 009 modelling is based around the use of existing N gauge chassises.  When the manufacturer decides to cease production of a chassis, 009 kit making of a particular model or models also ceases.  The issue would therefore appear to be the unreliable supply of chassises for 009 modelling.  I have personal experience of this.  My first purchase was a Meridian Models Kitson 2-6-4T.  When I then sought out the Graham Farish chassis to go with it, I discovered that it was not in production.  I had to wait a couple of years before it became available.  The model was eventually built.  Now that I want to purchase another sometime next year, I have found out that Graham Farish are no longer selling chassises separately, though I know that Parkside Dundas are still selling them.

I don't know Neville Ward personally but aren't his products intended to fill just this gap in the market?  I suppose my question would be, accepting your and Brian's remarks, does the problem of an unreliable supply of chassises have to be solved first before considering production of an RTR model?

[B.Meldon]

I can not remember a time when there were no 009 kits available. When was this?

It must have been in the 1960

[rhobat bryn]

I cannot remember a time when there were no 009 kits available.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't one of the remarkable things about the Craig and Mertonford that the locos were all scratchbuilt because of the unavailability of 009 kits at the time?  But my point was not a chronological one but an economic one.  009 kits have not existed forever just as RTR 00 has not existed forever.  At some point someone, and from what you're saying it would be the manufacturer of FR kits and Peco, decided to produce a kit where before none existed.  As a result of that decision and the response from the market, the supply of 009 kits expanded to the size of the market we have today which I would argue is quite considerable, given the number modelling in 009 and interested in narrow gauge.

You probably know that the Meridian Models Kitson 2-6-4T was originally the Centre Models L&M kit and was originally supplied with a chassis as part of the kit. This proved to be not very popular so the kit was altered to take the Minitrix 2-6-2 chassis. The masters were later sold to Meridian and altered slightly to take the GF chassis and re-released.

Actually I didn't know that so many thanks for the information.  One of the reasons I appreciate the opportunity to read your postings is that they are so educational and valuable to someone like myself who is relatively new to the field.  I doubt there is a man or woman alive who knows more about these subjects than yourself.

As has been said before the N drive chassis are handmade items and they are made to order. Neville has tried as far as possible to use component that he makes in house, but even he has had problems with the supply of motors at times.

Making a chassis for 009 that uses components such as motors, gears and wheels from various suppliers also causes considerable issues for the 009 kit manufactures with supply problems. As with the N gauge chassis the amount of components used is so small that it is inconsequential to the original component manufacture, so again the production of the chassis is dependent on the suppliers continuing to make the components needed. For example if the motor stops being made then you are in trouble and this can, and has  happened in the past.

So making a chassis in small numbers even if you are making it your self does not guarantee it will continue to be a reliable supply unless you make all the parts yourself.

I don

[B.Meldon]

I am by no means an expert on these maters Rhobat. There are others that know a lot more than me.

Small 12v motors are hard to make, very hard in fact. The machine needed to wind the wire on to the commutator is a very expensive bit of kit and the unit numbers of dedicated 009 motors would not be any way close enough to justify the cost of the equipment.

It is true that before the first 009 kits everything was scratch built but the investment needed to produce those early kits was small, I do not even think that they were using a centrifuge to cast the first white metal kits, they were static cast, so only the simple gel mould made in two parts, an old saucepan and a gas hob were needed! The masters would have been made in brass and the gel mould that would last say 50 castings would be made from the masters. Often the kits would have been nothing more than a single modeller wanting to build a few locos of the same type and then marketing the kit to their friends in the society or to sell in the FR shop.

Cost wise, although many will ague this point, I would think that a 009 loco will have to be placed at the same price as the cheapest of the N gauge R-T-R UK outline locos, so under

[pilotfriend]

When I built my 008 layout of the Aberglasyn Pass, the only things available were a few white metal castings and plans for a double Fairley and Prince. There were some wheels but they were useless. My double Fairley was built for me by a watch maker using the motor from the newly released Lone Star 000 gauge.

The other availability was the TT gauge Triang 'Jinty' which could be bashed. Bob Barnard built his early MWs using this and they are still running today.



Of course, most people would want a different prototype so one once has produced the first RTR and are left with 99% of production on your hands, you will have to do it all over again.

The Minitrains diesel and steamer were finally sold for $5 in Woolworths and KMart.

[rhobat bryn]

I am by no means an expert on these maters Rhobat. There are others that know a lot more than me.

Well if someone with the range and extent of your knowledge is not an expert, I'd like to meet someone who is.

[/quote]

Small 12v motors are hard to make, very hard in fact. The machine needed to wind the wire on to the commutator is a very expensive bit of kit and the unit numbers of dedicated 009 motors would not be any way close enough to justify the cost of the equipment.

It is true that before the first 009 kits everything was scratch built but the investment needed to produce those early kits was small, I do not even think that they were using a centrifuge to cast the first white metal kits, they were static cast, so only the simple gel mould made in two parts, an old saucepan and a gas hob were needed! The masters would have been made in brass and the gel mould that would last say 50 castings would be made from the masters. Often the kits would have been nothing more than a single modeller wanting to build a few locos of the same type and then marketing the kit to their friends in the society or to sell in the FR shop.

That aside, With regards the production of motors, I simply do not know enough about the process to comment usefully.  In the normal course of events, I would try to contact Neville Ward to learn more about the process of chassis making but as I don't have the finance in place to make an investment, any such correspondence may be viewed as disingenuous or a waste of his time.

I take the point that the financial costs involved in the early days of kit-making were comparatively low (although the amount of labour time given to these projects must have been quite high) and therefore the risks involved would also have been low.  But the principle of the proper management of risk applies equally to RTR as it does to kit making, if not more so given the higher level of investment involved.  The only difference is one of degree.

Cost wise, although many will ague this point, I would think tI'm sure hat a 009 loco will have to be placed at the same price as the cheapest of the N gauge R-T-R UK outline locos, so under

[B.Meldon]

Well Liliput did indeed look into producing a RTR Welshpool 0-6-0 in the 1970

[rhobat bryn]

That's a very interesting analysis, Brian and, once again, providing much food for thought.

[rhobat bryn]

I think your point regarding the initial surge in sales followed by a steep fall is very telling.  It means that market saturation was reached very quickly.  The right business strategy would then be to produce new models in order to sustain demand in the market but, as you say, it's difficult to sustain that level of investment indefinitely.

Although the examples you referred to are some 40 to 50 years ago now, I suspect that the same pattern of demand would emerge if an RTR loco were to be produced today.  I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Brian.  A producer would have to be prepared for promising sales on launch but which would not be sustained much beyond that.  A supplier would have to have a production process that could cover its costs on a limited run only, not an easy thing to achieve.

Would I be right in saying that there is more competition in terms of the range of kits available now than there was then or is that a misunderstanding on my part?

Another point I wanted to raise with you was your opinion on improving 009 production supply.  I hope I'm not characterising your position unfairly if I say that your view appears to be that because any attempts to improve matters have associated difficulties, there is not much prospect of any improvements in the supply of products at all.  Is that the case?

[Hobby]

Or you could model in HOn3 building all your own 10.5mm gauge track, rolling stock, and locomotives

I thought that there was a fair sized market in the US for HOn3? Sure I've seen commercially produced track and kits for stock...

Rhobat

One think you could consider would be to see if one of the N gauge manufacturers would be willing to supply you with a bulk purchase of a suitable small chassis (Tomix Percy?) and for you to get a batch of bodies made up in resin or plastic and then assemble them yourself and sell them as rtr?

[pilotfriend]

In the late 1960s, some wonderful HN03 brass models were available, made in Japan. Sadly, none of them worked properly and many lost thousands. HN03 died.

We have never had it so good for suitable N scale chassis and I really cannot understand what this is all about.

JdF

[tedp]

I think the best compromise would be using readily available N gauge chassis like Kato or Tomix, and designing 3D printed body shells to go with them. I think this has been mentioned already. It would be possible to produce near-scale models or good freelance interpretations of popular prototypes. How about this:

• I think the key to a successful approach would be a short time to market and being able to break even on small series and within a short time.
• 3D printing may be a good approach provided the printing resolution would be fine enough.
• Design is said to be very easy and production can be farmed out or even, if the producer invests in a printer, done in his own workshop.
• Chassis changes can be accommodated within reason. Perhaps a chassis mounting template could be made for popular chassis, to include in each design
• About painting I don't know but a basic finishing spray coat, couplings and lettering transfers could be included.
• As soon as demand falls, production is stopped. Other demands are analysed and met as they seem viable.