RTR Loco

[Darren Hedges]

I found this: http://www.model-railway.co.uk/model-shop/index.shtml

but no mention of "Boldventure Works", though the web site is under construction.

Try This http://www.model-railway.co.uk/news/index.shtml

Do I understand you correctly in that they assemble and paint (or vice versa) the cast bodies and chassis and sell as RTR or are they another kit maker? If the former, it sounds like a first, at least in the UK.

They are complete and RTR locos based around a RTR N gauge chassis and body.

I believe the Mocolova (spelling?) resin kits were available on Bachmann chassis ready to go in the USA at one time.

I didn

[rhobat bryn]

OK, so here's a thought.  A collaboration between Neville Kent and Chris Ward.  Discuss...

Well, if I had money to invest, I'd certainly want to approach both gentlemen to discuss potential business models for such a project, given their reputation and the quality of their work.  If the finance became available, I would want to be able to do just that.

[garrywhiting]

I am sorry to dampen the undoubted enthusiasm that exists for such a project but it's time a touch of pragmatic realism was added to this discussion. Whilst it may be polite to describe Paul Windle, Neville Kent ( N-Drive ) & Chris Ward as small manufacturers, this does perhaps convey the wrong impression. In reality they are better descibed as artisan craftsmen, and there are very real limits on the amount of goods they can produce. This is not conjecture on my part, it is fact. I am fortunate to count all three as personal friends so I can speak with some knowledge. Paul Windle handbuilds loco bodies from plasticard and brass tubing onto commercial N gauge chassis, in much the same way as many of us do, his forte of course, is that he does it so much better than the rest of us. In a good year he can produce about 50 locos many of them special one-off commissions, he neither has the time or resources to increase his production capacity. Similarly Neville Kent is handbuilding his chassis', it is not an automated manufacturing process. In Neville's case it also very much a part-time operation, having to earn a living elsewhere must take priority so again his production capacity is severely limited. He can also be hampered by the vagaries of third party suppliers, which again impacts on his production capacity. Chris Ward's 3D printed loco bodies etc are very much a sideline, to his main business. Chris Ward's 3D printing machine is more efficient if it is run more or less continuously, so the model railway side of the business exists to take up any slack in the system, it is not the core business.
All 3 of these gentlemen are to be much admired for their contributions to 009 modelling, but their efforts should not be confused with production lines in Chinese factories.

[pilotfriend]

Some sense at last from Gary. Locomotives built in quite large numbers for the 00 scale RTR market are of an extraordinary quality these days but cost well over

[rhobat bryn]

I am sorry to dampen the undoubted enthusiasm that exists for such a project but it's time a touch of pragmatic realism was added to this discussion.

One of the purposes of these fora is to connect people who have different perspectives on a question so that we can exchange experiences and ideas, which in my view is all to the good.  How else do we learn?  I fully accept your definition of Paul and Neville as artisan craftsmen and you're right to say that describing them as small-scale manufacturers is a misnomer.  However I am not confusing the idea of small-scale production with the Chinese factories that you mention.  This is a question of market development which is about an accurate analysis of the demand for a product and supply side logistics.  The examples you quote are the currently existing business models for 009 production, i.e. they are manufacturers with another main source of income, production is carried out in their spare time and using the excess capacity of their capital.  My reason for feeling passionate is not just to see the production of a RTR 009 loco that would sell successfully, but because I have yet to hear what the facts and figures are regarding supply and demand and the subsequent business model required to reconcile those two.  It is on that basis that I would make any investment decision.  Opinions are of course important and there are plenty of people who start production on the basis of a hunch and nothing wrong with that.  But I would prefer to make a business case based on a commercial analysis of the market.  The reason this is difficult is that markets are dynamic and thus can be difficult to nail down.  However I see no harm in trying and will continue to raise points and ask questions until such time as a realistic business model emerges.  What is clear is that attempts to find where that market is in practical terms is being tentatively explored by Paul, Neville and Chris.  Maybe we will need to see the longer-term results of their efforts before deciding whether a move up from artisan craftsman model to small-scale production is possible.  Anyway, many thanks for your comments and for sharing your insights.  It has given me additional food for thought in my quest to find an appropriate business model that would move things forward.  It may eventually prove elusive but I won't know unless I try.

Personally, I prefer this scale to be one where modellers have to learn more skilled building techniques and (shock horror) actually make their own engines and stock from the kits already provided or from scratch! In fact, if a large range of RTR was available, I for one, would change scales!

The implication of what you say is that one cannot be allowed to enjoy having a 009 layout unless one has first mastered the necessary modelling skills.  I for one am not a natural modeller and therefore to get the layout started I am having to ask other people (and pay them) to construct the kits on my behalf.  It doesn't prevent me from having a go at model making myself.  Currently I am attempting to build wagons from plastic kits because if I make a mess of it I haven't wasted a great deal of money which would be the case with a brass kit.  I intend to have my station building built for me but then intend to have a go at building my own roundhouse.  I also intend at some point in the future to attempt building a steam railmotor when I have the necessary skills.  Model making is something that requires confidence as well as ability and that takes time to acquire.  So if I'm already paying out money on having kits constructed, why not pay out good money on a RTR loco?

Your view that you would change scales if RTR became available has left me bemused.  Is it your view that the availability of RTR would somehow water down the quality of the 009 scene?  If that is the case, and I have no desire to put words into your mouth, then I'm not sure that P4 modellers would agree.  Is the quality of their work in any way lessened by the existence of a 4mm version of Thomas the Tank Engine?  Is the quality of your own work on County Gate, which for me is an inspiration, in any way diminished by the existence of a naff version of a pizza layout?  I would argue that it does not.  The quality of the work stands on its merits and does not depend on the surrounding countryside for its prominence.

[pilotfriend]

"I for one am not a natural modeller and therefore to get the layout started I am having to ask other people (and pay them) to construct the kits on my behalf.  "

That is a perfectly acceptable way to go. However, if 009 RTR is available, it would mean that the scale was a common as 00. I would not find the scale challenging at this point as well made RTR is better quality than anything I could build.

If I was younger and this unlikely event happened, I would go for 3mm/ft narrow gauge.

[B.Meldon]

I return to the subject of one of my previous posts about this subject:

Because there is no proven market or any way to prove that a market exists there is no way that a business plan could be made that would be acceptable to any investors.

Rhobat you said:

Well, if I had money to invest, I'd certainly want to approach both gentlemen

[rhobat bryn]

Because there is no proven market or any way to prove that a market exists there is no way that a business plan could be made that would be acceptable to any investors.

It's not possible to prove in absolute terms that a market exists but it is possible to make an argument for one.  First of all, there would be a discussion about which product to manufacture.  That should be based on the sales figures for the most popular kits.  These are, of course, rightly commercially confidential, but they are available, just not accessible.

Secondly, one can point to the work of Paul Windle, Neville Kent and Chris Ward to show that suppliers are moving in this direction, however tentatively, which suggests that there is a demand for RTR or semi-RTR already there.

These arguments would need to be developed in more detail to persuade other investors but there is a basis for a business case in the points made above.

So I would assume from this that you do not have the money yourself and as you will never be able to convince anyone to invest without a proven business plan there is no point in you pursuing this idea.
It will just never happen.

You're right in that I don't have the necessary funds to hand to fund such a project at the moment.  I am however expecting to come into some money next year, and at some point in the future, a sum of a considerable size.  Therefore this is not just an exercise in speculation even if the timescale is not yet clear.  At the appropriate time, I would be willing to lead in this matter with my own finance either solely, or as a means of drawing in other investors or of seeking match funding from a financial institution.

If it was my own money alone, I would also consider taking a loss on the first product if it could be shown that such a move could stimulate market momentum.  By producing an actual locomotive, the expectation is created that RTR is possible and that can have the effect of raising market expectations and thereby increasing the size of the market itself.  A subsequent product could then be in a position to cover its production costs and subsequent models to make a small profit.

However the fact that this opportunity will arise at some point in the not too distant future leads me to want to explore this issue now.

For those who enjoy making kits or even scratchbuilding, RTR is never going to replace that pleasure.  but I believe there are people on the margins who are not confident about kit building who might be persuaded into 009, if something ready to hand were available.

[rhobat bryn]

That is a perfectly acceptable way to go. However, if 009 RTR is available, it would mean that the scale was a common as 00. I would not find the scale challenging at this point as well made RTR is better quality than anything I could build.

If I was younger and this unlikely event happened, I would go for 3mm/ft narrow gauge.

I take your point.  And I would also agree with you that I cannot see 009 ever being awash with RTR.  There may be a market for a common loco such as a quarry loco to facilitate entry to the hobby.  But beyond this, as far as I can make out, modellers seem to value the diversity of locos that narrow gauge provides.  These diverse products are unlikely to reach a point where demand would not be satisfied by the kit market and, where necessary, kitbuilding services.  This means that we can still look forward to seeing more County Gates and Cliffhangers in the future.  I hope that, one day, Porth Illtud will be considered good enough to be one of them.

On another note, I see that County Gate is to be retired.  Does this mean that it will not be making an appearance at Warley in 2012 for Lynton & Barnstaple World?

[pilotfriend]

CG will be at Warley next year attached to Cliffhanger. It is not a permanent retirement, just for 3/4 years as it has done all the major shows.

[rhobat bryn]

CG will be at Warley next year attached to Cliffhanger. It is not a permanent retirement, just for 3/4 years as it has done all the major shows.

Thanks for that.  Look forward to seeing them both.

[B.Meldon]

Rhobat,
I think that you may be overestimating the sales of 009 kits somewhat. The differences between the various kits year on year are often in tens rather than hundreds of units and as Garry has explained the numbers of units sold by existing manufactures like Paul Windle and N drive is so low as to make any analysis of sales date meaningless.

Not only that but a particular 009 kit will sell better if the chassis is available and cheap and not so well if the chassis is expensive or out of production. (But they do sell even if the chassis is no longer available!) So the actual prototype does not necessarily affect the sales. Not only that but the standard of the kit and how easy it is to build as well as the price will all influence how well it sells.
So even with all the data it is unlikely that a clear favourite would be apparent. You would be left to make a choice as to what you think would be popular.

I suppose over the last 40 years the best selling 009 kit would be the Peco (Gem) Vari-kit, mainly because it has been available for a long time and has had different versions to fit different chassis, so that would not help you at all as it is a freelance loco! Next would be the Peco James and Jeanette that are actually freelance 3mm scale locos, but again they have been changed to fit different chassis, closely followed by the Peco GVT tram.
You also need to know that some 009 kit manufactures, will often produce a kit for a particular loco just because they like that loco or that it fits in with what they are modelling at the time on their own layout, not because it is going to sell well!

I said before the cheapest way would be to get it built in the factory where all the other R-T-R trains are made in China. They are the ones you should be speaking to about the cost.

As much as I would like to see a 009 R-T-R loco my advise would be not to put your money into making one.

Brian Meldon

[rhobat bryn]

Many thanks for your observations, Brian and for your advice which I know is well-informed and well-considered.  Be assured that if I were to proceed with such a project, it would have to make economic sense to do so.  I never allow 'reality' to temper my passions and enthusiasms but I never allow my passions to make my financial decisions.

I said before the cheapest way would be to get it built in the factory where all the other R-T-R trains are made in China. They are the ones you should be speaking to about the cost.

I wondered if I could prevail upon your knowledge a little further and ask you what is meant by the cheapest way.  Do you mean the lowest cost per unit?  I would be surprised if you meant total capital outlay.

[membership]

Personally, I prefer this scale to be one where modellers have to learn more skilled building techniques and (shock horror) actually make their own engines and stock from the kits already provided or from scratch! In fact, if a large range of RTR was available, I for one, would change scales!

JdF

Or you could model in HOn3 building all your own 10.5mm gauge track, rolling stock, and locomotives


[/quote]

[rhobat bryn]

Try This http://www.model-railway.co.uk/news/index.shtml

They are complete and RTR locos based around a RTR N gauge chassis and body.

Apologies Darren.  In all the sound and fury of getting my own thoughts out of my system, I overlooked the significance of your post: an RTR diesel on sale for