The Society Heritage Collection

[Hobby]

I see that the Collection has been out and about and is growing and becoming much more visible since Julien took over.

I do feel, though, that there is a major omission in it, early Ready To Run stock, from the likes of Minitrains, Zeuke, Liliput, Roco etc., and the early kits. Whilst the likes of the AVR, Craigshire et all may have been the incentive to try out 009/H0e it was the RTR and kits that were available that allowed most of us to actually make a layout as scratchbuilding locos or have enough money to pay someone else to do it was beyond most of us (and still is!!)... If you look at early 009 layouts in the magazines of the 60s and 70s they include a lot of stock from those early manufacturers, some painted/modified, some left original. I'd suggest that the Society should be "diverting" good examples of original RTR to the Collection when such items appear on the Sales stand so that people can see what the early 009/H0e modellers had to use.

Several years ago, before Julien became Heritage Officer, I offered several examples of the Zeuke H0m stock to the Society but the then officer wasn't interested and so they went on eBay, I see some similar stock has appeared since, in modified form (repaint/re-bogied) in the collection. Surely some unmolested examples should also be in there, not just ones that were owned by someone "famous"?! (Whatever your definition of "famous" is!)

[B.Meldon]

Once a start is made down the path of early ready to run items that were seen on layouts in the 60's and 70's where would it end?
I have been collecting Egger-bahn, Jouef, and 1960's Minitrains for over 40 years.
I keep to just one example of each version produced, even so that is about 50 locos, and I still have a few versions yet to obtain even now.

Regarding Egger-bahn what version of each loco would be appropriate for the Society collection?
The first early version, the most common version seen on 60's and 70's layouts, the most unusual version or the last version made.

There were also two versions of the 1960's Minitrains Baldwin (one is very unusual) as well as three version of the 1960's and 70's Jouef Decauville loco plus another in the 1980's.

Then there is all the rolling stock.

So as I said where it would end!

Perhaps I should just leave my collection to the society one day, that would solve the probelm?
But I doubt that would be viable long term.

[JulienW]

The issue is twofold, Hobby.

Firstly, until I wrote one and it was approved by the Committee there was no collection policy.  To be honest we ended up with some items that were accepted because it was felt (at the time) that a refusal would offend the donor, and equally offers for items that perhaps in hindsight should have been taken up were not, because they didn't fit in with someone's ideas and interpretation of what "009 Modelling" actually was - and it's a bit difficult to ask my predecessor in the job what his thoughts were.

Secondly, I'll refer to the current Heritage guidelines (I think the whole document is on the Society's website in the member area - apologies if it isn't*)...

4.  That the model, if commercial, is representative of the progression of 009 modelling;

   4.1. It may be that the collection already adequately represents certain key stages or aspects of 009 modelling: In such cases acquisition should then be restricted to    securing examples in better condition and/or earlier in date (e.g. Eggerbahn to be    preferred over Jouef retreads of Eggerbahn). In addition such acquisitions should be    undertaken as replacements (i.e. poorer condition / later example is disposed of);

However:

Because of the nature of the Society the Heritage Collection should not be a comprehensive collection of any modeller or manufacturer, but should be aim to be representative of the  history of small scale narrow gauge modelling, defined as "Models of railways with a prototype gauge less than 4' 8 1/2" in scales 1:76 and 1:87 (with some leeway either way)". For brevity, reference below to '009 modelling' or similar phrases, should be taken to mean this.

So, in essence, yes, perhaps the like of Minitrains, Zeuke, Liliput, Roco etc. should be represented in the collection in addition to the Eggerbahn and Jouef stuff we do have, but the collection needs to be representative rather than exhaustive as nobody has the space to have 'one of everything' - especially me!

We do have some examples of Zeuke stock in the collection, other than the Fawrcarnedd 0-10-0, that is fairly unmolested - some ex-David Mander's Stronachlacher stock that at most has only been repainted - and should the opportunity come up to obtain, for example, a mint in box G Thommen, I would recommend its acquisition, especially if it were donated free of charge.

BUT I can only make a recommendation to the Committee, and it would have to be in very good condition to be eligible, so to the membership in general please do not inundate me with offers of locos and stock that have been run into the ground and/or hacked about just for the 'kudos' of having something of yours in the collection as a refusal may offend - and I can get quite offensive after the 20th similar offer! ::)


*EDIT - I've checked and it is.

[Hobby]

Once a start is made down the path of early ready to run items that were seen on layouts in the 60's and 70's where would it end?

So as I said where it would end!

You are looking at it from a "collector's" point of view, Brian, the simple answer is that we'd do the same as people in museums do everywhere else, we'd save significant examples of stock, not every single version like you do! The collection is there to show people what things were like in early days, so you don't need an example of every colour variation (real or imagined), just one would do!

I'd go back to what I said, the early RTR is just as important in the history of small scale NG modelling as stock from "well known" layouts is as it can be used to show where we've come from, most modellers didn't scratchbuild or pay for someone else to build, they bought the likes of Jouef, Minitrains and Liliput, as can be seen from looking at articles on 009 layouts in the press in the 60s and 70s.

[B.Meldon]

......and should the opportunity come up to obtain, for example, a mint in box G Thommen, I would recommend its acquisition, especially if it were donated free of charge.

There were three versions of the Liliput 'G Thommen'. There were two different cab top fittings and a third later version with cast metal spoked wheel centres. (Not plastic wheel centres as most have.)
So again what one would be 'representative' the first version, the most common version of the later version?

You will not find a box with the foam in good condition as this has all deteriorated with time, many are now little more than dust!

[Hobby]

Julien posted whilst I was posting, so I've slightly altered the last post.

You said "it would have to be in very good condition to be eligible" that is contradicted by your quote of the Society guidelines "In such cases acquisition should then be restricted to securing examples in better condition and/or earlier in date (e.g. Eggerbahn to be preferred over Jouef retreads of Eggerbahn). In addition such acquisitions should be undertaken as replacements (i.e. poorer condition / later example is disposed of)" which would indicate that you accept examples but if better ones come along then they are replaced and disposed of.

I note that the Society says it can accept donations to the collection and that if better ones arrive then earlier examples can be disposed of so I'd suggest that "mint" examples, whilst they should be the aim, should not be the be-all and end-all. I can donate a Jouef 0-4-0 which certainly isn't mint but would tide things over until a better one came along.

This section says it all for me:

"It may be that the collection already adequately represents certain key stages or aspects of 009 modelling"

I would suggest that versions of early RTR are a key aspect and stage of 009 modelling, and from what I've seen early unmolested RTR is poorly represented in the collection, with the concentration being stock from "significant" layouts which are nice but not representative of what most of us started out with.

[garrywhiting]

The Heritage Collection is not a "Museum of Everything 009 & related scales".  If you go down that route, just where do you stop ? It would effectively mean obtaining an example of anything and everything 009 / HOe / HOn30, etc etc ad infinitum.  Logically it would also mean obtaining examples of today's current models at reasonable cost rather than waiting another 20 - 30 years for them to achieve "collector's" prices.  And what about the small cottage industry producers ? Why restrict to mainstream manufacturers ? We would have to include the likes of Paul Windle, Fourdees etc.

The acquisition policy is I agree somewhat nebulous,  usually based on recognising something as and when it turns up as being of historical interest.

The collection of mint examples of items from mainstream manufacturers is best left to individual obsessives, and that is meant kindly and is no way derogatory, more power to them I say, but it is just not what the heritage collection is for.

Garry

[B.Meldon]

You are looking at it from a "collector's" point of view, Brian, the simple answer is that we'd do the same as people in museums do everywhere else, we'd save significant examples of stock, not every single version like you do! The collection is there to show people what things were like in early days, so you don't need an example of every colour variation (real or imagined), just one would do!

I'd go back to what I said, the early RTR is just as important in the history of small scale NG modelling as stock from "well known" layouts is as it can be used to show where we've come from, most modellers didn't scratchbuild or pay for someone else to build, they bought the likes of Jouef, Minitrains and Liliput, as can be seen from looking at articles on 009 layouts in the press in the 60s and 70s.

If that was indeed the policy adopted for the society collection I would sudgest the following early ready to run locos:

1966 Jouef Decauville with flat side tanks and red wheels. (ie the first production run)

1960's Minitrains Baldwin with metal rods. (They also made them wih plastic rods)

1960's  Minitrains Plymouth

1974 Roco 0-6-0 black steam loco with the 'Atlas' chassis, and both connecting and coupling rods and fixed chimney. (ie the first production run)

1970's Roco 0-6-0 green diesel with the 'Atlas' chassis (ie the first production run)

1970's Liliput U class 0-6-2 with plastic wheel centres. (There were several versions but just one will do.)

1970's Liliput 'G Thommen' with plastic wheel centres. 

These would cover both the general apearance of what was available and be examples of the earlest versions.

There is already a 1963 Egger-bahn diesel in the collection.

For the rest of the Egger range I would go for the versions that were most common rather than the first ones made, so that would be the Jouef versions made between 1968 and 1972.

However, as you say I do collect these items, so I tend to look at them from a collectors point of view.

[B.Meldon]

The collection of mint examples of items from mainstream manufacturers is best left to individual obsessives, and that is meant kindly and is no way derogatory, more power to them I say, but it is just not what the heritage collection is for.

Garry

You are 100% right I am a bit obsessive when it comes to collecting Egger-bahn etc!!
To this day I am still on the look out for the versions I have not yet got, but at least all my collection locos do work and get occasional use when I have an 'Egger day' on my layout.
I also agree that it is not practical or desirable for the society heritage collection to have every item produced.

However, perhaps representative early items would indeed be a good idea, but as I mentioned I think the choice of what actual versions would be appropriate for the collection is critical.

[Hobby]

The Heritage Collection is not a "Museum of Everything 009 & related scales".  If you go down that route, just where do you stop ?

The acquisition policy is I agree somewhat nebulous,  usually based on recognising something as and when it turns up as being of historical interest.

The collection of mint examples of items from mainstream manufacturers is best left to individual obsessives, and that is meant kindly and is no way derogatory, more power to them I say, but it is just not what the heritage collection is for.

Garry

I wonder if you read my post, Garry? I did say that it shouldn't include every variation that was made, just significant examples of certain items. Brian has replied with a sensible list of stock that could (should?) be considered, though it is just locos, I'd also suggest that some representative rolling stock should also be included.

I'm not asking for masses of RTR stock, just a representation of stock that we all used to show current modellers what we were using back then (surely the whole point of such a collection?).

Quite frankly I don't understand the negativity I'm seeing, it is coming across as elitist, if it wasn't owned/built/paid for by someone "famous" it shouldn't be part of the collection. I didn't start with that sort of stock, I started with RTR, as I suspect most of us did, if RTR is not a key part of the development of 009 Modelling I don't know what is!

I'd hoped attitudes have changed, it seems not.

[garrywhiting]

I wonder if you read my post, Garry?


Blair , You are now being simultaneously rude and insulting, and retrospectively editing your original posting does not assist in any way.

Methinks an apology would not go amiss.


Garry

[Hobby]

Garry, I covered what you said in a reply which came before yours pointing out that I wasn't suggesting collecting everything but significant items, in my reply to Brain. You answered my original post but ignored my later post which came before your first post and covered the point you made, please look at my post timed at 09:27, to yours at 09:40.

[garrywhiting]

I wasn't suggesting collecting everything but significant items, in my reply to Brain.

ok,  so who may I ask, decides what is "significant" and what is not ?  What are the criteria to be applied ?  What undiscernable quality distinguishes a significant item from the mundane ?

Garry

[Hobby]

I've had my say, Brian has very kindly taken what I said at face value and come back with what, in my view, are reasonable suggestions. I feel that the early RTR stock was crucial to the start of 009 as a viable modelling scale and not just for those who had the money and/or the skills to get by without. As such it has earned it's inclusion in the Collection, whether it's mundane or not (though I'm not sure why being "mundane" should be a valid criteria!).

You clearly don't agree, perhaps best to agree to differ.

[Hobby]

If that was indeed the policy adopted for the society collection I would sudgest the following early ready to run locos:

1966 Jouef Decauville with flat side tanks and red wheels. (ie the first production run)

1960's Minitrains Baldwin with metal rods. (They also made them wih plastic rods)

1960's  Minitrains Plymouth

1974 Roco 0-6-0 black steam loco with the 'Atlas' chassis, and both connecting and coupling rods and fixed chimney. (ie the first production run)

1970's Roco 0-6-0 green diesel with the 'Atlas' chassis (ie the first production run)

1970's Liliput U class 0-6-2 with plastic wheel centres. (There were several versions but just one will do.)

1970's Liliput 'G Thommen' with plastic wheel centres. 

These would cover both the general apearance of what was available and be examples of the earlest versions.

There is already a 1963 Egger-bahn diesel in the collection.

For the rest of the Egger range I would go for the versions that were most common rather than the first ones made, so that would be the Jouef versions made between 1968 and 1972.

However, as you say I do collect these items, so I tend to look at them from a collectors point of view.

Brian, that seems like a reasonable starting point, I'd also look at the H0m stuff from Zeuke, though from what Julien has said there is already some of that, albeit modified and not original. I agree that if not careful we could end up with lots of stuff so it's worth having a list of "key" stock and, other than the lack of rolling stock, that covers most bases, certainly what we saw in the early 009 layouts seen in RM and such like in the 60s and 70s. In view of the way it's displayed I'd question whether an original box is needed, I'd suggest that the loco/rolling stock itself is sufficient?

I get the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the current attitude towards the collection is to try and preserve everything that came from one of the "founders" of small scale railway modelling, with searches for "missing" items seen as very important. As such we have quite large collections from several of those early modellers. I'd question whether we really need to take that approach (if that's what is happening?) or if we should stick to just keeping the more significant items? Of course we then run into the issue that Garry mentioned about what is "significant"!