Can I push ? - Propelling ?

[Rob Fitzgerald]

Am I right in thinking that it is not acceptable full size practice to have the loco pushing passenger or goods rolling stock for any distance ?

Is it a completer no-no , or has there ever been a prototype situation where this happened ?

[Stan Williams]

They did operate a Push Pull Train on the FR some years ago, with the diesel Conway Castle and the coaches in cream and green livery.

I am sure that some mineral lines also operated this way with wagons, but not over any great distance.

Stan.

[B.Meldon]

In short it is not something that happens. But in the world of narrow gauge I am sure you will find one or two!

Many of the UK NG railway rule books have stipulations for propelling stock and additional stricter requirements for propelling trains with passengers on board. In general it is not allowed unless essential, and then only then over short distances and at very slow speeds, a max of 5mph for example.
In some cases the driver must have a view of a guard or shunter at the far end of the train, holding a flag steady, if the flag is waved the driver must stop. (Often a yellow flag is used for this, but on most lines any flag of any colour being waved is a signal to stop.) This can be difficult regarding visibility on a curving line.

If there is a driving compartment at the leading end of the train, as there was on the FR, this is just the same as running loco first.

From memory I think there is also a max distance for propelling passenger trains in the UK of ¼ mile. After that the loco has to run round the train for the return trip.

There are exceptions, for example if a coach is permanently coupled to the loco, so it is effectively a railcar and the driver has a clear view of the line ahead, for example if the driver is higher than the coach with the passengers in it.

On some lines where there is no run round loop the trains have a loco on both ends. For example this was how it was done on the WHHR when running to just short of the Traeth Mawr loop for the 2008 season.

[Rob Fitzgerald]

Thanks for the replies - some interesting detail there too from Brian that gives me some food for thought.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Are rack railways propelled (uphill), or does it seem people only photographs them on the way down?  :) (I've never been on one, the nearest thing being the funicular in Bergen!)

I assume if they are it is for reasons of safety.

[engerth399]

I think the Penlee quarry used to pull loaded trains on to the quay and the push the empties back to the loading hoppers - perhaps half a mile.  Of course, not passenger at least in no official way!

[Graeme Dunbar]

I was wondering if, as to the practicalities of operating a model railway, that while propelling passenger stock between stations on large layout would look odd and wrong, on a small one there may be possibilities?

On say a small layout with a terminus station (without a run around loop) and fiddle yard, the facilities to run around could be off-scene. A train arrives, the passengers alight, the empty train reverses out, reappears with the loco at the correct end, picks up the passenger and departs. I don't think this is a particularly rare situation. With a bit more space this maneuver could take place in view, just not within the limits of the station and its entrance.

[B.Meldon]

Are rack railways propelled (uphill), or does it seem people only photographs them on the way down?  :) (I've never been on one, the nearest thing being the funicular in Bergen!)

I assume if they are it is for reasons of safety.

On the rack lines like the Snowdon Mountain Railway the loco is always on the lower end of the train.
The coach is not actually coupled to the loco, only gravity keeps it in place.
However there is also a communications system between the guard on the coach and the locomotive.
The guard who is viewing the way ahead can signal the loco driver to stop if needed.
The coach also has its own braking system that can be used in the event of the loco leaving the track.

So yes the coach is propelled, but the circumstances are very different to that of a normal NG line.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Another uncommon situation: what happens on lines with zig-zags? Are there any/many passenger carrying ones?

[Rob Fitzgerald]

Modern Corris - Propelling passengers (with yellow flag as mentioned by others)

https://youtu.be/jG70baqQkIk

[JulienW]

Another uncommon situation: what happens on lines with zig-zags? Are there any/many passenger carrying ones?

The Cappay - Foissy - Dompierre line in France. A 2ft gauge preserved line has a passenger worked zig-zag to get from alongside the Somme canal up onto the Somme plain. Parts of the line were built during WW1 (can't recall if by US or UK forces) and later used by the local sugar beet producers to take finished products from the refinery at Dompierre (up on the plain) down t9 the canal.

It's been a while since I traveled on the line so I can't recall how the zigzag was worked - and being in France the usual UK railway laws would not apply.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Thanks for the lead Julien: I found some videos.

It looks like an interesting line! It also looks like there is a bit of everything in negotiating the zig-zags. Mostly the locomotive appears to run around but there is one bit where the locomotive can be seen propelling the coaches with passengers in them, but I suppose that might just be a short section in preparation for running around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R82zUAQ_r7Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CWJClmbw-o

[Alan Pollock]

Hi Guys

Dose the snowden railway count as a narrow gauge railway if so and I hope this video might be of interest but please note that already mentioned the driver looks to have good vision from the cab
https://youtu.be/KHHZLSNtYrQ

Thanks
Alan

[B.Meldon]

Hi Guys

Dose the snowden railway count as a narrow gauge railway if so and I hope this video might be of interest but please note that already mentioned the driver looks to have good vision from the cab
https://youtu.be/KHHZLSNtYrQ

Thanks
Alan

.....and as I mentioned the guard in the front of the coach can comunicate with the driver. Including telling the driver to stop if needed.

Yes the SMR is narrow gauge, so yes if you model a rack railway it would be correct to have the locos always at the lower end propelling the one coach.

But on a normal non-rack line it propelling a train with passengers on it would not look correct.

There are always exceptions under some circumstances, like on the Corris before they built their new head shunt and on lines with zig zags, in other parts of the world, but even some of those have run round loops so that they run loco first.

In short you would have to have a very good reason to propel.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Along similar lines, has there ever been a NG Autocoach type arrangement?

I guess a steam railcar/railmotor might be a simpler proposition as the controls need only go along a single vehicle, although if it was articulated it would probably still need universal and expansion joints perhaps?