Peco Electrofrog 009 turnouts

[Alan Leyland]

Hi Everyone, looking for a bit of help on the DCC 009 layout Im currently building

Im looking to convert the Electrofrog points but my soldering skills are not very good. My first effort was a bit of a disaster.
Can anyone recommend someone who could kindly convert the points for me, I would of course supply them with new points and any out of pocket expenditure. There is 3 points that require converting.

[Keith Lawrence]

 It would help with replies if you said where you are?  I'm in France so unlikely to be of assistance, but I'm sure there'll be someone who either can or point you in the right direction.


Keith

[JulienW]

As far as I am aware as long as you fit insulating rail joiners on the right place (the exit rails from the point frog, also known as the common crossing) then the point should not need any modifications for DCC use.

So that leads me to ask what modifications are you attempting to make to the point?

I could understand wanting to fit frog polarity switching - soldering wires to the frog and each stock rail and linking these into a switch that mimics the (electrical) switching of the point blades (and often operates the point by wire in tube) thus removing the reliance of the potentially dubious contact between the point blade and stock rail - as I do this will all my points,  no matter if I'm using analogue or DCC power supply.

From my own experience soldering the wires on to the point can be tricky, as you need to balance getting things hot enough to melt the solder to make the joint without melting the plastic parts of the point (too much) to damage them beyond use.  The trick is to work quickly, and I find that a hot clean soldering iron with a fine tip and some flux will help*. When it comes to the flux the 'non-clean' type designed for electronics use is best if wiring up after the track is laid, but if you want to solder the wires on before track laying then any flux will do (even the paste stuff I use for soldering etched kits),  just make sure you remember to clean off the flux residues with a toothbrush and some cream cleaner ("Cif" or whatever the cheapest is that your local supermarket sells) as these residues will lead to corrosion of the rails - which will be no good for good pick up by the locos, which you will need for DCC more so than for analogue.

Just out of interest I dug out one of my Peco 'Mainline' 009 points and notice that Peco supply those with a wire pre-soldered to the underside of the frog, thus making the job much easier. I can't comment about any others from the current Peco range as none of my stock is 'current' having been in stock for some time (as the boxed Y point does not have this wire attached, but there was a recess on the unerside under the frog where one could solder the wire.  Frankly it looks easier to solder it on the top!

(* thinking a bit more about this I also use a solder that melts at about 200 centigrade.  I've had the reel for many years and have no idea where it came from, but i suspect it is lead-based, and the more modern 'electronics' solders are both lead free and melt at a much higher temperature.  Whilst it may not be the use it was designed for it might be worth you trying one of the solders meant for building brass kits - the usual melting points for these are 145 or 188 degrees C - as this will reduce the 'dwell time' when the iron is near the plastic bits of the point as the solder will melt quicker to make the joint and it will still conduct the electricity.)

[B.Meldon]

I agree with Julien

No modifications are needed to the Peco electrofrog 009 points for DCC use, only insulating fishplates are needed, and only then if you want to keep all tracks powered at all times regardless of the direction of the point.
However, I would recommend the use of frog polarity switches, and these will need wires soldered to the rails.

What modifiations are you making to the points?

[Alan Leyland]

Thanks for the replies. I was under the impression rightly or wrongly  that to overcome problems with point rails when they become dirty it would be advantageous to add jumper wires and then to add isolation joiners to avoid short circuit. I also intend using cobalt slow action switches.

If you guys have had no problems with dirty point rails on 009 track, them I will go with the flow and use them straight from the packet without alteration.

[Mac Strong]

I agree with everything said here, but despite that I modify my points so that the frog is disconnected from the blade area and the blades are linked to the outer rails.
Why ? you may ask.
Simply because I run 99% 0-4-0 locomotives and this has proven reliable for my layouts (0n16.5 and 009) for me over a number of years.

Can I also recommend having a look at MTB MP1 point motors   https://www.mtb-model.com/pages/mp1.php?lang=en

[JulienW]

Thanks for the replies. I was under the impression rightly or wrongly  that to overcome problems with point rails when they become dirty it would be advantageous to add jumper wires and then to add isolation joiners to avoid short circuit. I also intend using cobalt slow action switches.

If you guys have had no problems with dirty point rails on 009 track, them I will go with the flow and use them straight from the packet without alteration.

Some people don't have problems though (I suspect bigger locos with more weight and wheels to help pick up help) and it's possible to clean the contact area with isopropyl alcohol or a 'switch cleaner'. Alternatively if one is very careful a piece of very fine emery paper folded over so the abrasive side is outer most can be used to clean the contacts, but it is all too easy to catch the tip of the point blade, and any abrasive will introduce scratches which may make future cleaning harder as you need to clean out these minute scratches as well.

As B. Mellon says though adding wires to the frog and both stock rails will overcome the issues of dirt interrupting current flow between the point blades and stock rails, but this isn't just a DCC thing as so far my 009 layouts have all been analogue and I've fitted frog polarity switching for added running reliability, and if you are intending to run small 0-4-0 locos then fitting the switches to the frog is to be recommended.

As Mac says in his post the other DCC modification to points is the cut the rails between the point blades and frog, then linking electrically the point blade to the adjacent stock rail. Incidentally this is the usual set up when hand building points.

Isolating the frog in this way (and if you do so you will need to add a polarity switch as the current has no other way of getting to the frog)  can be a good idea for analogue set ups, as it removes any possibility of a wheel bridging the gap between the open point blade and stock rail, which in an unmodified 'ready to lay' point are at opposite polarity, and causing a short. That being said if the wheels are correctly gauged this sort of thing should not happen.

[B.Meldon]

You will find that different modellers have different approach to this issue.
I can only tell you what I have experienced over the years:
The point blade to fixed rail electrical switching is unreliable. You can keep it clean but in my experience these tend to fail again at the worst possible time!
Because of this I always fit frog polarity switches to every point. These need to be correctly adjusted so that the small amount of movement in the point blades switches the switch fully.
Other than that I make no other electrical modifications to the 009 Electrofrog points at all.

I have never had any issues with wheels shorting out on the open point blades. This could happen if the wheels are set about 1.5mm under gauge. But if they are that far out they will ride up and de-rail in every point check rail anyway!

I have only ever had one of the post-1980 Peco 009 points fail electrical between the frog and the blade. However, all the points I have in use are the pre-2010 versions with a fishplate as a blade pivot. I have had no experience with the revised post-2010 009 points that have a proper blade pivot.

[Alan Leyland]

Thanks for your help and advise :)

[9396CLAS]

On PECO OO-9 Code 80 turnouts, where is the recommended place to solder the frog wire? There is a small gap where the factory fit a bridging wire (see photo) or I could cut the plastic at another point. Also is there a possibility of damaging/unfixing the factory fitted bridging wire when soldering onto it?

[Graeme Dunbar]

By the looks of what I see on the points I have that the connections made by Peco during manufacture are spot welded so soldering is unlikely to damage them.

[B.Meldon]

There is no Peco 'recomended' place to solder the frog wire on these points.
They were designed in 1980 long before DCC.
I just solder the wire to the outside of one of the rails that are connected to the frog.
As mentioned before a frog polarity switch is a very good idea.

[Graeme Dunbar]

I've just checked my 'bits' box and have soldered a wire to points such as these by cutting one of bits the webbing between the sleepers just below the frog and spot welded part shown in the photo, i.e. at the heel end. Cutting one piece of webbing leaves three others to hold the sleepers at the toe end in place.

If you intend to slit the closure rails just ahead of the frog at the toe end in order to bond the remainder of the closure rails and switch rails to their respective running rails it can be a bit trickier.

On the left and right hand points (SL-E491 and SL-E492) there are enough sleepers to cut (I use a small 'jewellers'' piercing saw) to leave two or more rail fixing chairs/spikes either side of the cut. For the Y point on the other hand I cannot see a sensible way of doing it as there are not enough sleepers. The best I can think of (for the older version that used rail joiners as hinges) is to somehow remove the rail joiner/hinges and replace them with insulating rail joiners. I'm not sure how - and I've destroyed points attempting to modify them.

For soldering, make sure the rail is scrupulously clean and if you have a temperature controlled iron, turn it up as high as you can so you can get the rail hot enough to solder before the heat conducts too far into the plastic. If you are soldering before laying an aggressive flux can be used (I use Powerflow) as the point can be washed off under running water afterwards. I see on one point I was not thorough enough and some telltale green has appeared on the rail. Scrubbing with bicarbonate of soda or washing soda (if you can still get it) should help.