Electrofrog?

[Tim Parsonson]

This question has probably discussed before, but I can't see anything on the forum about it.
So, Insufrog or Electrofrog for DCC?

[Graeme Dunbar]

There is a good bit of information here:

https://dccwiki.com/Turnout

I don't think it is a matter of which is preferable or 'best' for DCC, but the way in which they are installed and wired. As with any wiring (DCC or DC) it is the potential for shorting out between left and right rails which is an issue.

The article includes some clear illustrations of potential sources of shorts in both live and dead frog turnouts.

[Tim Parsonson]

Thanks Graham that's really helpful.

[B.Meldon]

   As far as I am concerned there is only one answer.
Dead frog points can and often do make 009 locos stall at slow speed so should be avoided.
Electrofrog is the way to go for reliable running in 009 be that DC or DCC.

The shorting out issue with point blades on the back face of wheels is just not a problem and is the same for DC or DCC.

I would also recommend that every point has a frog polarity switch fitted as the blade to fixed rail electrical connection is unreliable.
Again, this is the same issue for DC or DCC.

It should be noted that a DC layout needs less wires connected to the rails than a DCC layout and a DC layout can also use common return wiring for the track, point motors and any other electrical items again reducing the wiring, where a DCC layout cannot as neither of the two wires to the track can be used as common return wires.

[Tom Haythornthwaite]

It should be noted that a DC layout needs less wires connected to the rails than a DCC layout and a DC layout can also use common return wiring for the track, point motors and any other electrical items again reducing the wiring, where a DCC layout cannot as neither of the two wires to the track can be used as common return wires.

I use a common return in DCC (though I do need one for each set of eight blocks connected to my occupancy detector units), and as my point motors are connected only to the track, they do not add to the wiring.

But I do use electrofrogs!

[B.Meldon]

I use a common return in DCC (though I do need one for each set of eight blocks connected to my occupancy detector units), and as my point motors are connected only to the track, they do not add to the wiring.

That is very interesting Tom!

I was always told that you cannot use either of the DCC wires to the track for common return for solenoid point motors or any other electrical items, like signals or street and building lights etc.

Obviously if there is a DCC control unit for every point that would work fine, but if you wanted to combine DCC control with analogue point motor control using common return I was told that it would not work.

As far as I am concerned this is one of the major drawbacks of DCC in that I can not convert any of my DC analogue control layouts to DCC as all the electrics on the layout including one rail of the track use the same common return.

Brian Meldon

[Tom Haythornthwaite]

Oh dear, I think I have caused some confusion.  Sorry, Brian and Tim.

I was always told that you cannot use either of the DCC wires to the track for common return for solenoid point motors or any other electrical items, like signals or street and building lights etc.

Brian, you are right and I was wrong, but partly because we are on a different track (HA HA HA ..... .... I'll get my coat...)  I was being a bit defensive about the amount of wiring required by DCC because it can actually can vary from 'fewer' to 'more'.  (Sometimes a lot more.)  My unclear point about points (HA HA again) was that I am converting to DCC point motors that are powered by and controlled by the DCC track so they do not add to the number of wires.  I didn't mean to suggest that point motors can share a common return with the track.

Sorry, Tim, this is taken quite a branch (line HA HA) from your original question.

[Tim Parsonson]

Tom
Maybe on a different track (!) but always interesting to hear views and ideas from others.
I'm planning my first ever layout although I've been a member for several years and an interest in 009 for many, sparked I guess like a lot by visits to the Ffestiniog and Talyllyn in my teenage years and a spell on working parties to the Ffestiniog in my early twenties.( I turned seventy last year by the way). However I make no claim to be anything of an expert on railway running so all information is gratefully received.

Thanks to all for the comments, even the contradictory ones. ;D

I have planned from the begining that my layout will be all DCC, I blame a lifetime working in electronics and computers. :-\ ::)

[Stephen Rainsbury]

I have planned from the begining that my layout will be all DCC, I blame a lifetime working in electronics and computers. :-\ ::)

Same here :-)
I have found DCC to much simpler to wire up, just power at various places, same as DC, but no need to isolate the siding, so no switches and fewer wires.
I am currently experimenting with driving points using Arduino Nanos, leeching their power off the track to drive servo. I know it is another 10-50mA occasionally but my locos are only 100mA and the controller can do 2A so plenty of headroom.
As for Insulfrogs, then yes they can be a pain, but I plan to investigate stay-alives (capacitors) next, assuming I can get one in my tiny locos alongside the decoder.

[B.Meldon]

Same here :-)
I have found DCC to much simpler to wire up, just power at various places, same as DC, but no need to isolate the siding, so no switches and fewer wires........................

As for Insulfrogs, then yes they can be a pain, but I plan to investigate stay-alives (capacitors) next, assuming I can get one in my tiny locos alongside the decoder.

This is not the place for a DC or DCC debate, however with DC the points isolate the sidings, so no swithces or extra wires are needed.

Even with the most simple of layouts , say a circuit with one siding; two wires are needed to power the track with DC but with DCC four wires are required.  I do agree that working out the wireing is easier with DCC, but you do need more wires to the track.
(I would also recommend frog polrity switches on every point, but this is the same for DC or DCC.)

In addition on a DC layout every electrical item can use the same common return wire, but with a DCC layout you can not do this.

[Stephen Rainsbury]

This is not the place for a DC or DCC debate, however with DC the points isolate the sidings, so no swithces or extra wires are needed.

Even with the most simple of layouts , say a circuit with one siding; two wires are needed to power the track with DC but with DCC four wires are required.  I do agree that working out the wireing is easier with DCC, but you do need more wires to the track.
(I would also recommend frog polrity switches on every point, but this is the same for DC or DCC.)

In addition on a DC layout every electrical item can use the same common return wire, but with a DCC layout you can not do this.

I agree not the place for a debate, but I am curious to know why you would need 4 wires, do you mean in the loco or the track?

[B.Meldon]

I agree not the place for a debate, but I am curious to know why you would need 4 wires, do you mean in the loco or the track?

Yes sorry it would be 3 wires with DCC, two for the main circuit and one for the siding. With DC the one for the siding is not required and the point will isolate the siding.

Brian Meldon

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Yes sorry it would be 3 wires with DCC, two for the main circuit and one for the siding. With DC the one for the siding is not required and the point will isolate the siding.

I think that we are just taking different approaches. I wire the sidings in parallel to the main track (or bus) but still think of it as two wires as they all go back to a common star.

Stephen

[Hobby]

This is not the place for a DC or DCC debate

Oh, I don't know, Brian, it can be but it'll be a little one sided if it is as it's in the DCC section and unless a DC-er did what I did - accidentally open the thread - they wouldn't even know there was a debate!! ;) :)

[B.Meldon]

Yes sorry it would be 3 wires with DCC, two for the main circuit and one for the siding. With DC the one for the siding is not required and the point will isolate the siding.

I think that we are just taking different approaches. I wire the sidings in parallel to the main track (or bus) but still think of it as two wires as they all go back to a common star.

Stephen

With DC there is no need to wire the sidings at all as the points provide the isolation.
I am talking about the wires needed to be soldered to the rails. You need less with DC than you do with DCC.

Also, DC can use a common return for every electrical item on the layout, including point motors, lights, signals and even the track.

With DCC both wires to the track need to be separate from everything else that does not have some form of decoder.