Live frog conversion for Peco Setrack

[Ian McAulay]

This isn't entirely unconnected with my topic on wheel/track compatibility which morphed into a discussion of hand built track. It's potentially of wider interest, hence a separate topic for visibility.

I was doing a Google search to see if anyone had been brave/foolhardy enough to attempt to convert a Setrack point to live frog. I stumbled across this product from a small supplier in Germany:

https://www.eichhorn-modellbau.de/en/component/mijoshop/product/445-elektrofrog-peco-crossing-setrak-13st5.html?Itemid=186

It's intended for N gauge Setrack points, but if I understand correctly, the only difference from 009 Setrack is the sleeper base. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that!) I have no idea how easy it is to fit or how good it is, but it's an interesting idea, so I thought it was worth drawing attention to it. If you click on the image on the page, you'll get a slightly bigger image of a converted point. Click again and you'll see the detail of the converted crossing.

At EUR 4.87, it's fairly expensive, particularly when you factor in postage.

Ian

[Graeme Dunbar]

That reminds me - I think I recall someone producing parts for tram track on a cottage industry basis using whitemetal castings. It may have been Tramalan, but I think they are no longer operating. OK that was not 009, but assuming whitemetal is up to the job, some enterprising person might be able to make their own castings for 009.

Edit: phrasing changed hopefully to clarify.

[Robin Webster]

Hi Ian, I like fiddling around with track etc. I think i have a old N gauge Mini Trix turnout which i have no use for, i will see how easy it is to convert it to electrofrog, if it works out, you can have it. Now the only part i dont know is the code of the track. I wonder if Pecoo produced the old set track for MiniTrix.

Robin.

[Hobby]

I suppose if you are doing a few the post costs wouldn't be too bad.

I suppose if someone could try it it could be worth the Society considering buying a bulk lot if it did work?

[Ian McAulay]

Actually (now I think about it) there is an incompatibility between N and 009 that affects this product - the replacement crossings have the chairs cast on, which will be in the wrong place for the 009 sleepers. Nothing that a file wouldn't fix though!

The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?

Ian

[Ian McAulay]

I like fiddling around with track etc. I think i have a old N gauge Mini Trix turnout which i have no use for, i will see how easy it is to convert it to electrofrog, if it works out, you can have it. Now the only part i dont know is the code of the track. I wonder if Pecoo produced the old set track for MiniTrix.

I'd certainly be interested to see how a conversion works out. If straightforward handbuilding doesn't work out for me, I might consider converting Peco points. (I'm confident that I can build a crossing that works - it's the blades and tiebar that I've always struggled with.)

As far as I know Trix (and Minitrix) had their own manufacturing plant in Nürnberg. They were taken over by Mangold GmbH about 1970 then by Märklin about 1990. My understanding is that Märklin bought the company for its manufacturing capacity. So probably no Peco involvement.

I would be surprised if the rail code isn't 80. When I was first working in N gauge in the early 1970s, as an impoverished schoolboy, I was careful to use Farish points, with their live frogs, and Farish plain track, with its correct British N sleeper spacing, on visible parts of layout, but anything I could get my hands on second hand on the non scenic areas. I know I had a wild mix of brands including Fleischmann and they were all compatible.

Ian

[Hobby]

I think you'll find that the Continental manufacturers use code 83, Ian, though it doesn't make a lot of difference in reality.

[Graeme Dunbar]

The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?

My thought was lost wax casting, but I found this:
https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2

[Ian McAulay]

I think you'll find that the Continental manufacturers use code 83, Ian, though it doesn't make a lot of difference in reality.

I've just stuck a micrometer on a piece of Fleischmann N gauge track - 0.0825 in. Code 83, just like you said. I'd never noticed the discrepancy, which probably just means that with 1970s steamroller/pizza cutter wheels, it really didn't matter. (It also suggests that my usual test for uneven joints by running a finger along the rail isn't as sensitive as I thought!)

Thanks

Ian

[Ian McAulay]

The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?

My thought was lost wax casting, but I found this:
https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2

I checked the Wikipedia pages in English and German just to check that Neusilber really is nickel silver. Yes it is, so I have even less clue how these things are being made than before!

Ian

[Hobby]

You'll notice a very slight lip when Tillig or Roco HOe track meets Peco HOe track! A little bit of use of a needle file sorts it out...

[Graeme Dunbar]

The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?

My thought was lost wax casting, but I found this:
https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2

I checked the Wikipedia pages in English and German just to check that Neusilber really is nickel silver. Yes it is, so I have even less clue how these things are being made than before!

Ian

It can undoubtedly be cast, perhaps just not appropriate for hand-made jewelry or cottage industry model manufacture. No doubt the task can be outsourced to an industrial manufacturer, but that suggests quite high volume production.

I'm guessing it is quite easy to draw like wire given its use for rails, and stamped for coins for of course, so could the parts be stamped perhaps???

Edit:
My mistake I think - the term stamping applies to thin sheet.

My latest guess - CNC milling? that might work for small volume production.

[B.Meldon]

The flange depth of the Peco 009 (and N) points is 1mm. Any less and you can get problems with some 009/H0e and N gauge wheel flanges.
The way the electrofrog points work require the frog check rails to be live. It is no good just doing the V rail, although that is better than all plastic!
I think that it is perhaps better to keep asking Peco to produce the 9-inch 009 points with electrofrog. (Just as they did in the late 1970's.) Peco did say that they would do this when it became apparent that the unifrog was not a viable option in 009, but that it was 'not a priority'.

[Graeme Dunbar]

An improved point from Peco would be ideal. It would be frustrating to spend time and quite a lot of  money converting points to find they did not match up to the performance of drop-in replacements that were available soon.

On the other hand if there is a long time to wait and an upgrade can be done inexpensively, then that could make conversion worth while. I can see the attraction and challenge of "up cycling" if decent and cost-effective home-made frog replacement is feasible.

If new points are on the horizon then perhaps sort-term conversion is worth consideration? I think someone tried metal foil. I'm not sure what type, but I imagine the self-adhesive Aluminium home security foil might be suitable. Another suitable type might be the self-adhesive copper foil used for shielding electric guitar cavities.

[Hobby]

From what Dave was saying on NGRM a new live frog 9" point is very low down on their list of priorities, after all, they've only just brought out the current ones!