009 Society Cattle Truck.

[Steve Facknell]

Just assembled the Society Cattle Truck- although to Irish Narrow Gauge it will look fine with other larger stock. Just in primer, will just have dry lettering applied and then a coat of matt varnish. The roof will be white.

[MickT]

Very nice Steve! I don't know if 009 News July 2012 is on the back issue library in the new Society website yet, if it is and you haven't got this issue, it is worth looking up Paul Titmuss's excellent illustrated article on building 3 variations of this excellent kit. One without roof, one with roof (he scratchbuilt one rather than use the slightly incorrect one supplied with the kit) and one as a purpose built roofless one as found on the T&D amongst other Irish lines. Splendid article well worth a read!

One little comment from me - I think a dark grey possibly with a toilet paper covering to the roof before painting to give it some texture would be a better looking match than a white roof - just an opinion!

EDIT - just had a look and 009 News July 2012 is indeed available on the Society website - pages 16 to 17 are the ones you want, but it is a very good issue all round so there's good reading and a good variety of articles throughout.

Mick

[Steve Facknell]

Thank you Mick- I have another to build so some differences can be made.
Steve

https://dorsetrailwaymodelling.blogspot.com/

[Stephen Rainsbury]

I am in the middle of making two of these so having been looking for prototype pictures on narrow gauge railways and am a bit confused, Do you know if there is there any particular reason why some had a roof and some didn't please?  ???
Stephen

[MickT]

The open ones that have square ends were built that way, ie intentionally open.

The open ones with curved roof profile ends as per the kit are probably because over the years the roof got rotten and fell in, and were not replaced. Unless anyone knows otherwise, I don't think the curved roof profile end wagons as reflected in the kit were built intentionally to be roofless.

Mick

[JulienW]

I am in the middle of making two of these so having been looking for prototype pictures on narrow gauge railways and am a bit confused, Do you know if there is there any particular reason why some had a roof and some didn't please?  ???
Stephen

Working from memory initially cattle wagons were just that - a wagon with sides high enough for the cattle not to be able to climb or jump out of. At some point a legal requirement was imposed that such vehicles had to have roofs - effectively turning them into cattle vans - but I can't recall the date of this legal change.

That being said I suspect that the law was worded in such a way that new build rolling stock for cattle had to have a roof, but existing stock could be left alone, as the Londonderry & Lough Swilly had 3 cattle vans that never aquiered roofs during their lifetime, though at some point the Swilly they may have been redesignated as general merchandise carriers (there was an arrangement of bars over the load space that could support a tarpaulin to keep the load space dry) so did not need to have a roof fitted under the livestock regulations as the were not designated as livestock carriers.

The same may be true of the Tralee & Dingle (the basis for the Society kit) but I suspect that at the end of the line's life there were a mix of cattle wagons without roofs, some that had roofs retrofitted, vans with original wooden roofs (in varying states of repair) or replacements made of corrugated iron and some vans where the rotten wooden roof have been removed but not replaced by anything (other than a tarpaulin?) as the line was slated for closure and the once a month cattle trains didn't warrant the expense of a replacement roof.

I've built a few of the Society kits (whispers: running on 12 mm gauge) and the main modification I've made (other than having a variety of wood and corrugated iron for the roof) is to cut out the three upper panels on the end to match the openings in the sides. The job, especially on the middle one, is made easier by using a piercing saw. I'll try to post some photos - I may have to take some first which means finding the wagons in the workshop so I may be some time...

Another specially of the Irish narrow gauge lines was the convertible van. Earlier examples had a roofless section in centre (in line with the doors) that could be covered with a tarpaulin to keep the weather out but left open for ventilation, and later examples (the County Donegal had a number of these) has flaps in the upper side panels that could be lowered for ventilation when carrying animals and closed to keep the rain out when not. I've always wondered what state any merchandise carried in these would be in if the previous occupants had been somewhat frightened and nervous  livestock...

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Thanks, I had never really thought about it before and I suppose that this make do and mend approach was quite common on Narrow Gauge lines that were running on minimal profit anyway.
having put the bodies together now I am surprised how big the are compared to my other rolling stock, but then I suppose that a 4mm cow is a 4mm cow!

[Julian Evison]

At some pont I believe there was a ruling from the Board of Trade that cattle wagons had to be covered. However, a new batch of open cattle wagons was built for the Tralee and Dingle in 1904, so the new rule presumably came in after that (at least for narrow gauge stock). From photos it is also clear that open cattle wagosn lasted a long, long time!

Julian

[JulienW]

Thanks, I had never really thought about it before and I suppose that this make do and mend approach was quite common on Narrow Gauge lines that were running on minimal profit anyway.
having put the bodies together now I am surprised how big the are compared to my other rolling stock, but then I suppose that a 4mm cow is a 4mm cow!

To be honest I think the larger size of the Society cattle vans is more to do with the prototype. The Tralee & Dingle falls into the 'middle' of the loading gauge band of the Irish 3' gauge lines (with Swilly / Donegal at the big end and Schull & Skibereen at the other).  Whilst they will work excellently with the other T&D stock available from Dundas (the Society kits use the same chassis iirc) which should all pass as 'large colonial 2'6" gauge stock - think Leek & Manifold - and may just about look OK against Welshpool & Llanfair stock (though their vans, including the cattle vans, do seem to be narrow in relation to their track gauge - possibly due to being designed by the Cambrian as 'smaller versions of standard gauge stock' rather than for maximum safe payload space as with the Manifold stock) they will look out of place alongside the 009 stock based on 2' gauge designs - like anything from the North Wales lines, and even the 'bigger' loading gauge ones like the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway.

Something else to bear in mind is that it seems most 'modern' cattle - the black and white Holstein 'milk machines' most often seen for example - tend to be bigger than the older more region-specific breeds (like Welsh Blacks to pick a random example), many of which are now classified as rare  (if they still exist) due to the modern breeds being more productive, so a 1900's cattle van didn't neccessaraly need to be as big as a more modern one as the beasts were smaller.

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Something else to bear in mind is that it seems most 'modern' cattle - the black and white Holstein 'milk machines' most often seen for example - tend to be bigger than the older more region-specific breeds (like Welsh Blacks to pick a random example), many of which are now classified as rare  (if they still exist) due to the modern breeds being more productive, so a 1900's cattle van didn't neccessaraly need to be as big as a more modern one as the beasts were smaller.

Thanks, that all makes sense, what a wonderful world or Narrow gauge.  ;D

I bought them partially for my inglenook to bring variety but they are way bigger than the other wagons that I am using, so I can blame that on cows  ???

Stephen

[MickT]

Stephen: bear in mind that the cattle vans are models of 3ft gauge prototypes, as are the Dundas T&D van kits. You definitely can't comfortably mix them with Festiniog or Talyllyn stock!

It's all to do with loading gauge on what will go together on a 2ft 3in (ie 009) gauge railway.

Many years ago I read an article in the old Model Railway Constructor on "scratchbuilding NG models" by David Pinniger. He successfully built a number of models from various railways together with a variety of freelance scratchbuilds that complemented each other very well because he went for a general maximum loading gauge that was very similar to 2ft 6in gauge railways such as the Welshpool & Llanfair. The basic "standard" he used was 10ft high by 7ft wide (in 4mm scale: 40mm high, 28mm wide). I model generally to this standard (although some of my stock is a bit wider once the guards lookouts on brakevans etc are taken into account!) and it works for me very well.

Just a hopefully constructive comment.

Mick

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Stephen: bear in mind that the cattle vans are models of 3ft gauge prototypes, as are the Dundas T&D van kits. You definitely can't comfortably mix them with Festiniog or Talyllyn stock!

...The basic "standard" he used was 10ft high by 7ft wide (in 4mm scale: 40mm high, 28mm wide).

Agreed the Cattle trucks don't really go with anything else that I have. Most of my "proper" stock is either from Dundas kits or uses their chassis so they pretty much go together, so I never really gave it much thought.

As it happens I originally wanted them for one of my "Bucket List" trains that I am putting together, ie a tribute to the Titfield Thunderbolt, but in Narrow Gauge.  I found a carriage on eBay that needs some work, including proper roof, and maybe some extra window bars, but it is close enough to the one in the film (if you squint) and the cattle trucks seems to work with it.  I have toad kit ready for conversion down, so all I need then is a black 0-6-0 and that train is done.



And the original

[Steve Facknell]

This is how it shapes up against a Bachmann Baldwin.

[Stephen Rainsbury]

This is how it shapes up against a Bachmann Baldwin.

I does come up a bit bight doesn't it, but other than that I really like it :-)

[JulienW]

This is how it shapes up against a Bachmann Baldwin.

It's what I'd expected from a comparison of 2' gauge (loco) and 3' gauge (cattle van) but I suspect the T&D stock may look less out of place against some 2'6" stock (like the Welshpool stock from Nine Lines kits - one of which is for their cattle van).