Dundas Tipper Wagon

[Stephen Rainsbury]

This is my first railway kit, a Dundas Tipper wagon (see picture), and need some advice please. I want to fit a Greenwich coupling at one end o bought a pack of Peco "pockets" but I am struggling to see how to fit them, has anybody else done this and could send me a picture please?

[JulienW]

Without being able to see the photo (my system tells me that it can't download it - sorry) it's difficult to see what the issue is.

However, I wonder if in trying to attach the the Peco 'NEM-Style' pocket and the greenwich couplings designed for it you may be making life difficult for yourself.

I say that because the 'standard' Greenwich coupling - CPL1 - has a flat 'tail' (the other end to the buffer) that can be attached to the underside of the wagon chassis - I use the etched holes in the tail and drill through these into the wagon to add pins to the glued joint for extra strength.

The 'other' type - CPL3 for the NEM socket (the one you seem to have) - has a different design of tail that you fold up to create a 'block' that plugs into the 'pocket'.  This is fine if you already have a pocket / socket to plug the coupling into, but it seems odd to go down this route when you also have to fit the pocket to a kit built wagon. This may be quite dificult given that some wagons - and the Dundas tipper wagon will be one of these - do not have much flat space to fit a coupling pocket to.

From memory of building both types I suspect that it would be possible to use the CPL3 in the same way as CPL1 by missing out the step of folding up the 'tail' and using the flat strip to attach it to the skip - possibly also drilling a couple of small (0.5mm) holes through the tail before fitting and after fitting extending these up into the plastic chassis (aim for the middle chassis member running along the length) to insert some reinforcing wire pins of the same diameter.

And an advantage of the flat tail is that you then have some adjustment to the coupling's height by gently bending the metal.

A minor word of caution here - I suspect that in straightening out a bent up CPL3 tail the etched metal will probably break, so any built couplings would be best left as they are 9i.e. to plug into a socket / pocket) and used for rtr stock or something with a flat floor to which the Peco pockets can be fitted.

I hope that helps, and I think that I have some of the Dundas tippers that I've fitted etched DG couplings (similar design to the Greenwich but smaller) to.  If I can find them I'll take some photos and post them here - but that may take a while...

[B.Meldon]

I found it quite difficult to fit couplings to the Dundas V skip wagons.
The main problem was that the chassis was not at the correct height for my couplings.
As a result, I never bothered to finish building the ones I have.

Brian Meldon

[Stephen Rainsbury]

However, I wonder if in trying to attach the the Peco 'NEM-Style' pocket and the greenwich couplings designed for it you may be making life difficult for yourself.
I say that because the 'standard' Greenwich coupling - CPL1 - has a flat 'tail' (the other end to the buffer) that can be attached to the underside of the wagon chassis - I use the etched holes in the tail and drill through these into the wagon to add pins to the glued joint for extra strength.

Sorry I din't realize that there were two types, but looking at the packet it says CPL3, and from what I read I thought that the pocket was the standard way of fitting them.

I haven't made one up yet, and have been slightly put off by the referenced video because it is so small that I can't really work out what is happening, so I am expecting a few fatalities along the way  :(

I can see where you are coming from about attaching the coupling directly so will have a look at that, thanks.

It is a bit of a catch 22, I can't fit the coupling until the wheels are one and I don't want to fit them until its painted, but then I want to fit the coupling first..

[Stephen Rainsbury]

I found it quite difficult to fit couplings to the Dundas V skip wagons.
The main problem was that the chassis was not at the correct height for my couplings.
As a result, I never bothered to finish building the ones I have.

I hadn't even go that far, and that's a nuisance :( 
There is a tiny little bump at one end which hooks under a Bemo coupling look, unfortunately my only loco at the moment just has a hook too, so this is not a long term winning solution. :(

[Hobby]

There is a tiny little bump at one end which hooks under a Bemo coupling hook,

Isn't that what it is for? I thought you only put a coupling at one end of these things. So you have a hook one end and the stump for the next wagon's hook at the other end.

[JulienW]

There is a tiny little bump at one end which hooks under a Bemo coupling look, unfortunately my only loco at the moment just has a hook too, so this is not a long term winning solution. :(

That helps!

First off, as Hobby has said the 'tiny bump' is meant to engage with the loop of a coupling on the next vehicle, but if (like your loco) the next vehicle doesn't have a loop then pulling it will not work as there is no link.

Secondly, as B. Mellon has said, fitting couplings to these wagons is not easy because they are so small, and fitting couplings is made slightly more involved as you need to get them all at the same height for the couplings to work well.

So, bearing the above in mind might I suggest the following:

First off some kind of height gauge is going to be useful, and better to sort something out at the start of your 009 carear rather than having to continually adjust couplings depending on what they are couloir get up to. Greenwich sell at etched gauge, but this has the disadvantage (in my view) of being a flat etch that need to be held vertically to mark the height. An easier to use alternative is the cast resin gauge sold by RT Models, and finally you can make one yourself quite easily by fixing a short length of track (N or 009 is fine) to a piece of wood (2" by 1" works well) with track pins. At one end of the track in between the rails screw into the wood a large flat-topped screw - a countersunk head one is ideal - but don't screw it all the way into the wood but just far enough so that the flat top of the screw head is level with the flat top of the coupling on your loco.

I'll finish this off later as dinner is on the table!

Edit: I realised something that I forgot to mention about the height gauge. Any of the ones I've mentioned should allow you to mark on the wagon where the coupling should end up, so you can mark the chassis (or measure up the gap above the chassis) before removing the wheels (if you need to) to fit the couplings.

[JulienW]

Right, now I've filled my face....

Secondly some thoughts on fitting a Greenwich coupling to a Dubdas tipper. The 'tail' on both types of coupling are quite thin so it should be possible to lay it on top,of or underneath the central 'spine' of the chassis without anything rubbing on the backs of the wheels, and the brass used to make the couplings should be easy to file away if there's is any rubbing on the wheels. When you mount the coupling don't set it so that it is hard against the end of the tipper chassis as you'll need to clear the loop on the coupling so it can lift up on its pivot but also to allow you to 'crank' the coupling to allow it to sit at the correct height.

It's difficult to know wether to suggest mounting the coupling on top - you wouldn't need to take the wheels out to do the job, but on may need to remove the ridges on the end cross members to allow the coupling tail to lie flat - or underneath the central spine - you will probably need to take the wheels out to fix the coupling in place - but my instinct would be to go for mounting on top as you'll need to put in less of a crank to drop the coupling downwards as it's probably going to end up not much different to the top surface of the skip chassis.

Don't forget that you'll also need to cut off the tiny bump at whichever end you fit the coupling whichever side (top or bottom) you attach the coupling.

Hope that helps

[Stephen Rainsbury]

Isn't that what it is for? I thought you only put a coupling at one end of these things. So you have a hook one end and the stump for the next wagon's hook at the other end.

Thanks, but it's the same both ends. The instruction recommend using them in rakes connected by a bit of chain, which they provide.  I wanted to use it by itself as part of a maintenance train, and could do with it being a bit more flexible. Not to mention that I want to be able to un-couple it remotely :(

[Stephen Rainsbury]

First off some kind of height gauge is going to be useful, and better to sort something out at the start of your 009 carear rather than having to continually adjust couplings depending on what they are couloir get up to. Greenwich sell at etched gauge, but this has the disadvantage (in my view) of being a flat etch that need to be held vertically to mark the height.

Thanks, yes I bought the Greenwich one and it is currently fixed to a lego block with double sided tape to hold it upright :-)

[Stephen Rainsbury]

..my instinct would be to go for mounting on top as you'll need to put in less of a crank to drop the coupling downwards as it's probably going to end up not much different to the top surface of the skip chassis.

Thanks, I agree that will be the best way to go, I want to have the option of filled in track sections and the coupling would be too low to go underneath.

I need to grit my teeth and get on with making up some Greenwich couplings to see how they work. Hopefully this cold will be gone the weekend so I can give it a go.

[B.Meldon]

Yes it is the coupling pin that is built onto the chassis that is too low for my couplings. I use Bemo/Egger type couplings that have a height of 5.8mm from the rail head to the underside of the loop, that is also where the slope on the pin needs to start. 
This is the same height as used by Roco, 1960's Minitrains, Egger-bahn, Liliput, Bemo and the new Minitrains wagons and coaches. (Most of the new Minitrains locos sadly have higher couplings!)
The dundas V skip is too low for my use, so I do not use them.

[Graeme Dunbar]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, something that is sometimes done is to connect skips into permanent or semi-permanent rakes with couplings added only at the ends of the rake. I may be imagining it but I think the Dundas kit - perhaps just the 5-pack - mentions using a link or three of fine chain, with perhaps a shortened dress-making or track pin glued into a hole drilled in the chassis.

Something I still need to get round to doing is mounting a short length of track on a firm base and attaching a "step" permanently to it at the right height for couplings. There is a little etched jig/template for Greenwich couplings that does the job but something fixed in place would be better I think. I understand some people use a screw between two sleepers and screwed down to the correct height for the purpose. I think similar contrivances are used elsewhere - for  Kaydee/Microtrains knuckle couplers springs to mind.

[Alec Hudson]

Photos of Dundas skip fitted with Peco couplings. Modified as in the photos.

[Stephen Rainsbury]

'Coupler-pockets'...  do not need the coupler pocket.

I didn't realize that when I started, I have dropped that idea since posting this.

But, if you use those on the V-skip you have 2 problems to solve:
1. You need the coupler to swivel, but the centre draw bar is too thin to drill for a swivel pin.

The coupling is not prototypical so I don't have a problem putting a small section of something between the two uprights to act as a pivot.

2. You need a centring spring for the swivelling coupler, but nowhere to hide it.

I don't really understand the need for a swiveling pivot. I like your idea for fitting hoops were they able to move or fixed?

Thanks again for the input. This one I don't want in a fixed rake, I have a photo of a maintenance train that uses uses one for ballast and I liked the look of it all. I just need 4 blokes in high-vis jackets drinking tea to compete that scenario.