Radio Control - Pro's and Con's ?

[Dave Cooper]

As well as model railways, I fly RC electric gliders and have a RC boat as well. The other day I was musing over a modest garden railway (probably '0' gauge) and it occurred to me that radio control lends itself quite nicely to this. I'm not too sure about indoor use though - I can see some benefits like not having to keep the track clean and simplified wiring etc.

Some radio sets (2.4 GHz) are now down around

[Frank]

Hi Dave,

There are a lot of advantages to radio control, as you say, not having to worry about the track, no cleaning needed for electrical contact (you still need to clear the twigs and leaves if its out side) and much better running, and no need to wire the track up if you are building new.

There is radio control equipment specifically for railways, there has been for a few years.   It's small and not particularly expensive.   Look at the Deltang website, they are the main source

http://www.deltang.co.uk/index.htm

and Micron who are one of the best UK suppliers

http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk

The technology is reasonably mature now, it is based on electric aircraft systems but adapted for model railways and works well.

I have a thread here,

http://www.009society.com/forum/index.php?topic=1106.0

There are a few on radio control on the forum.

As it happens I have a radio control demo stand at the Warrington show this week-end.  I don't know where you are, but if you are nearby, come along and have a look.

Frank

[Hobby]

There is also a very active thread on NGRM that may be worth a look for you, David. You need to register to view, though, if you are not already a member.

[Dave Cooper]

Thanks both - I'll have a 'delve' and see what's currently available. I'm also interested in what accessories, scenic effects etc can be triggered /controlled via RC.
Dave

[Frank]

The Deltang system is quite versatile and can control not just locos, but also other things.  The various receivers have motor control, logic and servo outputs so a range of things can be controlled either directly or though the addition of simple electronics.

Frank

[Stefan Krebs]

As you all tout the pro-side of Radio Control, let me add the cons for balance:
1. Limited range (by battery-size)
2. Maintenance required if not in use (charging batteries)
3. Frequent replacement as batteries don't last forever (every 2 to 5 years).
4. Frequency interference.
5. Space requirements inside engines limit minimum engine size.
6. Higher skills demand on owner/ maintainer as less ready-to-run available.

Of course, you could pick up power from the track, in which case most of above doesn't apply; and that includes all the 'pros' in the previous postings!  ;D

And of course, some of those pros should be caveated:
1. Twigs on the track will most certainly derail most 009 and smaller stock, but can derail G-gauge too.
2. Even G-scale struggles to maintain traction on leave covered wet track, so track cleaning is not something you can neglect if using R/C.


Waldschrat

[Hobby]

Deleted.

[Frank]

I do tend to put the positive arguments for radio control, but also I recognise thare are drawbacks.  However the following assertions are not things I would accept:

Limited range due to battery size.
All my current radio control locos will run for two hours or more continuous running.  When I demonstrate them at exhibitions they are typically switched on at 10.00 in the morning and continue to run into the afternoon when used intermittently.

Maintenance required ie charging batteries if not used.
Certainly the batteries will require charging if not used for a long time, but current batteries (LiPo) retain their charge for months if not years so this is very occasional, and only if the locos are not used for a very considerable time, in which case it would probably be better to take the batteries out of the locos anyway.

Frequent replacement of batteries every 2 to 5 years.
I have been building and operating radio control locos for seven years now and currently have about a dozen.  During that time I have not had to replace any due to the battery failing due to age, although I have replaced 3 or so due to operator error.

Frequency interference.
The current generation of radio control systems use 2.4 GHz radio which has a wide frequency range available.  The systems are intelligent enough to select vacant channels so as not to interfere with other systems.  They only operate in bursts every 20 ms or so and this reduces the chance of signals overlapping.   Also the system uses spread spectrum technology which means that two signals on the same nominal frequency can pass through each other without interfering due to the redundancy in the system.
I am not aware of any reports of casual frequency interference from similar systems occurring.  This includes the very considerable experience of the same systems in aircraft modelling, for which high reliability is of course extremely important.  If our models stop working, not real harm is done, but if a model aircraft "stops flying" in mid air the results could be vey serious. 
It is of course possible for the system to be swamped by a very powerful transmission either by intention or accident.  But a mains powered DC or DCC system is vulnerable to loss of mains power for example, either at the location or a wider blackout.

Space requrements inside engines limit engine size.
So far I have installed radio control in 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 locos in 009,  a 2-6-2T in OO, an 0-6-0 in 3mm (TT) , and an 0-4-0 in O-16.5, and others on the forum have installed systems in 0-4-0 HOf which might be thought even more challenging.

Higher skills demand as less R-T-R is available.
This is true, but this is why many of us model in 009 isn't it?

Incidentally, I don't know how well your house is maintained, but I do not generally suffer from leaves, twigs or wet track in my house.

Frank

[Stefan Krebs]

Dear Gentlemen,

Accepting what you said as true all the counterarguments you make are personal one-off experiences, but not statements that can be accepted as universal arguments.
1. I have yet to see R/C engines in small scales, e.g. Z-gauge or T-gauge, and while Bandai produced ZZ-scale (1:300) battery trains there is no room for the radio equipment in those. So, pointless argument, as there is a limit in size as to how small you can built, and that's a.) by the physical size of the equipment, and b.) by the skill level and capability of the builder/ maintainer/ owner; not everybody is eagle-eyed or has access to an electron-microscope. It's futile to argue where that limit is, it is there.
2 The initial query, and some of the responses, included outdoor operation. However, even if we contemplate indoor operation only, track cleaning is not made obsolete by using R/C, you still will get dirt on the track, which will affect performance.
3. Yes, I have had a 16-year old car battery ONCE, it happens. But, as I'm DEPENDANT on battery powered disability aids, i.e. heavy user of batteries with a high dependency on batteries, I can confirm that lead acid batteries TYPICALLY last 2 years and SELDOM exceed 4 years in life, and for other battery types lives quoted in my previous post are TYPICAL, lives you quote are EXCEPTIONAL. And I have my work carved out maintaining all the batteries in all those aids, I certainly don't want any more batteries around in my life.
4. No, I don't model in H0e to have a particular challenge with regards to size (I would do micro-engineering for that), or to spend more time maintaining and repairing stuff than using it; I still expect the same reliability and low maintenance as for simple DC equipment. There is nothing wrong with rising to the challenge of extra maintenance and repairs, if that's your fancy, but please be honest about it and don't deny that you're operating at a skill level that not everybody has or can attain, and that you accept that you divert more of your time to repair and maintenance than is required for simple DC operation.

Thus there are a couple more cons to add to the list:
1. Due to the limited life of batteries there is an increased impact on the environment as the R/C operation produces more waste.
2. As Lithium is a material of major environmental concern, which cannot be recycled 100% from batteries, there is a substantial increase in environmental pollution where these are used. While this is less the case for nickel-based batteries, and those containing cadmium or lead, obviously there is an increased environmental impact compared to mains-power operation.
3. Lithium-based batteries are a serious fire hazard, and even small batteries are known to set houses on fire.
4. Batteries are chemical plants containing acid or alkaline. Thus there is the hazard of chemical spills, which can damage or destroy equipment.


Cheers
Waldschrat

[clayliner]

I have been following thoughts on R/C made by Frank and others here and elsewhere for some time now, and also seen it in action, and - despite being anything but an early adopter (as anyone who knows me will testify!) - in the unlikely event that I should ever start a new project I would be seriously tempted to go down that route.

David.

[Hobby]

Deleted.

[Webmaster]

Could we all please take a nice deep breath and keep this thread on the merits, or not, of R/C control of 009 locos to technical discussion and let us keep comments uncontentious. Whether someone has direct experience, or not, of a subject should not be a bar to them having a valid opinion, nor should practical experience be an automatic

[Dave Cooper]

Hi Folks,

I would just like to say thanks for a 'vigorous debate', but, please, let's not fall out over it !

With the benefit of the various links, references and comments, I am now much better informed than before...

Best regards to all,
Dave 

[Hobby]

Sorry, Dave, as I was partly responsible for what happened I have therefore deleted the posts that Leprechaun took offence at.

I have seen OO9 R/C in action at several shows now and whilst it does have some shortcomings it does seem to work very well which certainly outweigh them. I know one user who is a regular poster on NGRM actually adopted it in HOf to make it more reliable than the DC operation of the original equipment! There is a lot more out there for you to read and I wish you good luck in the future if you decide to take it forward, just make sure you have a good magnifying glass and soldering iron!

Best wishes, Blair

[Dave Cooper]

All is forgiven Hobby - let's just enjoy ourselves !

A few notes on radio control (taken mainly from my aircraft /boat experience) :-

27 MHz sets - still around (very cheaply and mostly used), could be adapted for a single loco layout although the receivers are quite large compared with modern stuff.
35 MHz sets - I still use mine in electric (powered) gliders. The Tx has a memory for 6 models (could be locos) each having different settings...receivers are generally smaller. As with 27 MHz, would require a boat type ESC to give forward /reverse /variable speed. Legally speaking, these are for aircraft use only, but with the aerial down will only give a limited range (end of a large garden being typical).
2.4 GHz equipment (I think this is what Deltang use) the Tx and Rx have to 'bind' (do a type of 'hand-shake') before use. My indoor Quadcopter has just such a system and the bind takes place automatically as soon as you put the battery into the 'copter (takes about 2-3 seconds). More upmarket 2.4 sets can have up to 999 models, these are selected from a 'menu' on the Tx screen. The settings for each model can also be set up individually, but usually require some form of programming.

LiPo Care - I charge mine using a professional (multi type) charger inside a fire-proof envelope. Some modellers of the larger aircraft systems use an old ammunition box ! The problems seem to stem from over-charging, damage (crashes) and old age - although properly cared for they can last for years. Choose connectors carefully as any 'shorting' can be dramatic (I speak from experience !).

Glossary :-
Tx - Transmitter (controller)
Rx - Receiver (one per loco)
ESC - Electronic Speed Controller (one per loco, can be built in with the Rx in some designs)
LiPo - Lithium /Polymer battery (can be 1 or more cells dependant on use)

I think the multi-loco application (3+) will be solved in the near future (if it hasn't already been
done...)

I wouldn't recommend 'in-loco' charging - it would be a shame to spoil a nice model if anything went wrong.