New in the OO9 Society - and some NGG16 questions

[ADanti]

Hello all,

I'm new in the OO9 Society and I joined to find modelling inspiration after a visit to North Wales' WHR and FR.

Quick introduction: my name is Alex, I am originally italian but since 12 years I've relocated to Switzerland.
I'm a lifelong railfan and modeller, started at 5 with my dad's old Rivarossi 1:80 "H0" models (still resisting after 35 years and
my own treatment when I was a kid!), then halted until 20, when I discovered a model train club in my hometown Florence.
There, my railroad passion exploded again and I worked on the various club layouts (we had H0, N, Z, 1:20 and 1:1 :)
as well as in the museum of the italian railways infrastructure, where we maintained in good working order all the different
devices and items in use since the inception of railways in Italy up to the modern days.
After my relocation I visited a couple swiss clubs, but I couldn't find the same "spirit" as the club in Florence,
therefore I retired to private modelling, just for my own pleasure.
Built at least 3 layouts (H0 only, H0 and H0m, H0m only) in the past years, but for a number of reasons I ended up dismantling all of them.
Now I am considering starting a fully modular layout for the H0 and H0m models (100% swiss models, Ep.VI),
partially reusing elements from the previous layouts. So far the only layout I am working on is a Z "suitcase" setup.

As I turned 41 last week, my wife gifted me with a trip to North Wales, specifically a ride from Caernarfon to Porthmadog on the WHR
and from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog on the FR. This was a train trip that I wanted to do since a long time,
therefore it has been a really appreciated gift :)

Now back to modelling: at the shop in Porthmadog Station, I bought a white metal body kit for the FR Double Fairlie,
which will be subject of my next months' work to make it a running model. While this is already something that I will enjoy
modelling, I definitely want to model a WHR NGG16 and make it in OO9, so that I will have them run in a small layout that I am
already planning (Porthmadog WHR/FR Station to Boston Lodge Works, with hidden running loops representing the WHR and the FR
lines) - at the end it is a straight line, therefore it can fit on a shelf :)

Back to the proper subject: I've managed to source the NGG16 drawings from sarsteam.co.za (which seems to be operating again)
and a couple corrections from another person who is building a 7" live steam model, plus I took a lot of pictures while in Caernarfon
and Porthmadog.

I have been hunting high and low across the Internet to see if there is (or was) someone else trying to build one in OO9,
but so far the research is not yelding the expected results.

I have been looking a bit already on the OO9 Forum, but so far the search was not much conclusive - maybe I need to broaden the search
to the other categories too, not just the "Locomotives" section.

If anyone has ideas and/or experience on a similar project, any kind of help would be really appreciated.

I have been building models with very different techniques in the past 30 years, not scared by metal and
different welding and soldering methods (except TIG because I don't have the money for a good machine),
plus I have a CNC milling machine and a lathe in a dedicated workshop room in the house, therefore I am
used to scratchbuilding :)

.. and if you by any chance have questions about Italy, Switzerland and their railways feel free to ask :)

Best regards,
Alex

[clayliner]

Welcome to the Society and this forum, Alex. Hopefully you'll find us friendly and helpful and we look forward to progress reports from you (preferably with pictures!) as things progress.

As you may be aware, the Society has a valuable Sales operation for (mostly) second-hand/pre-owned items and if you haven't already done so you may want to sign up for their occasional listings of recently acquired items. But as this is not a list of everything in stock don't be afraid to send a "Have you got a..." email. For both just email Sales at the address inside the 009 News.

As it happens, a good friend (and Society member) was in conversation with someone from Italy yesterday at the Narrow Gauge South exhibition (I think he was on the Jelly Models trade stand, but may be wrong about that). He said that for some reason there does not seem to be the same level of interest in narrow-gauge in Italy as in many other Continental countries, despite there having been plenty of n-g lines in Italy. Do you have any thoughts on that? - and is it true?!

Best wishes,

David.

P.S.  Sorry I can't help with your specific queries, but hopefully others here will be able to help you with them.

[ADanti]

Hi David and thank you for your post.

I'll have a look into the Sales part - who knows that I might find what I am looking for :)

Regarding italian narrow gauge railroads, the statement you've heard is sadly right - indeed, there were plenty of NG lines in Italy
until the 1950s/1960s, but most of those have been either completely dismantled and/or converted to normal roads.

In some italian model railroad forums, there is someone active modeling the italian NG railways, but is really a minority.

There are still some interesting routes, all over the country - thinking of the Merano-Malles in the northeast, the Ferrovia Circumetnea
around Naples and the Vesuvio volcano, plus something more at the very south of Italy and in Sicily and Sardinia.

There is another subject that is equally important, related to Italy - the railways are seen by the people living there as a "hinderance"
rather than an advantage (in comparison to Switzerland), as local trains usually have huge delays and/or are cancelled altogether,
therefore it's very difficult to depend on those. And the overall image of the italian railways in the past years is definitely not a good one.

This, added to the fact that the younger generations aren't really keen on railroads and/or modelling, together with the high prices for
RtR models and the unluckily low incomes that are currently available in Italy, depicts indeed a sad situation for the hobby.

BR
Alex

[Hoddy]

Hi Alex
Welcome to the 009 Society
You may wish to look at this website, http://www.backwoodsminiatures.com/009kits.htm  Unfortunatley there is serious illness in the family and they have stopped trading, however, it may be possible to find an unmade kit from the 009 members sales team as already mentioned (send them an e-mail).
Another possibity that springs to mind is another narrow gauge website  http://ngrm-online.com/forums/index.php  It is not a 009 exclusive forum so always check that you are dealing with the 009 scale.
There is a wanted / for sale section that could fill your needs.
A search function is available which will allow you the follow the build progress of at least one (backwoods minatures) Beyer Garratt in 009.
If on the other hand you intend to scratchbuild there is a wealth of scratchbuilding information in the hints and tips section plus many threads showing more ambitious builds that you may find worth following. Again, not necessarily in 009.
Hope this helps
James

[JulienW]

Welcome to the Society (and the forum) ADanti.

Given the scarcity of the Backoods Minatures kit for the NGG16 you may be better off using your what sounds like a well-equipped workshop (I'm envious!) and scratch-building skills and making your own from the drawings you've got.

As an aside there are some 3D printed parts for the NGG 16 on shapeways (I think), but a friend of mine who is working on building a loco from the prints does not think they are up to much.  The useful bit of information I'll pass on though is that he is using the newer Graham Farish 08 chassis that has the outside frame bit already done and is using additional parts - probably from RT Models - to add the steam cylinders and valve gear to these diesel chassis.

Hope that helps, and please keep us updated when you start building the locos!

[clayliner]

Alex - as you at have noticed, someone has (presumably by coincidence) started an Italian n-g thread over on the NGRM online forum.

David.

[Generali]

Hi Alex and welcome to the forum. Ps I'm a new member of the Society too, I'm italian.
I like the NGG16 too and hope to see how your project goes.
Ps I am the Italian who has been quoted by David who has well remembered where I was.

[ADanti]

Ciao Generali :)

Sorry for my late reply, I've been quite busy with my offline life :)

At the moment I am sorting out some renovation at home, including a complete rebuild of my workshop.
I am taking an indefinite pause from one of my other hobbies (music), therefore I am trying to find a way how to store
properly a considerable amount of various pieces of music instruments for the years to come.

As soon as that is finished, I am planning to set up a couple 3D printers (a SLS machine might be on the way!) and my CNC Mill
among the other needed tools and instruments.

Getting back to the NG G16, I think it will take a while before I'll come up with some solid object to show the world.
In the meantime I am studying all the pictures and drawings that I've got, as well as sketching something on the computer.

I'll keep everyone posted as soon as something physical will be made :)

BR
Alex

[B.Meldon]

Hi Alex and welcome.
If you are used to building white metal kits you will not like the Langley double Fairlie at all! It was ok when it was a brand-new kit some 30 year ago now, but these days the castings are very poor.  But do not let that put you off all 009 kits, but perhaps only Langley ones!
It is also worth mentioning that the Langley kit is based on Livingston Thompson that is in the national Railway museum and is somewhat smaller than David Lloyd George and Merddin Emrys that are on the line today. (Think of the two double  and one single Fairlie locos on the FR today as 13.5 inches to the foot copies of the locos that were on the line pre-war and that would be about right!)
The backwoods NGG16 kits can be a bit difficult to make, and if you build them to the instructions you will not be able to take them apart for maintenance to the motors etc. The unmade kits will cost you a small fortune now and if you make a mistake and need a replacement part none are available.
The Graham Farish 08 outside frame chassis is an option for a scratch built NGG16 so is the Bemo 0-6-0 outside frame diesel chassis, these are better chassis but will cost a lot more than the GF 08.
B Meldon

[ADanti]

Hi again everyone,

just wanted to reactivate this topic as I have finally gathered some resources (drawings and pictures) to start designing the NGG16 on the computer to be 3d printed with my CR10mini.

I am currently drawing in Rhino with 1:1 measures (already dealing with entering measures in feet and inches proved to be challenging for my old metric mind!), so far I've been working
on the outside frame chassis, the front and the central frame. Have to say that most of the sizing is done according to the original SAR drawings, somewhere the numbers weren't properly readable
so I've been trying my best guess - therefore I am pretty sure I'll stumble in some odd positioned holes that will need to be adjusted when building the engine.

It's a long way to go, but I am pretty sure it will be worth the ride :)

Later on the day I'll post some pictures of the 3d models.

BR
Alex

[B.Meldon]

It should be noted that NGG16's 137 to 143 are not the same as the previous locos built for the SAR.

This batch was built to the modified specifications of Tsumeb Copper Corporation for use across the Namid desert. They have a larger front water tank, and carry no water in the rear bunker. They were in-fact intended to be used with a water tender attached. The tank tops are also a different design and the tank side are smooth with no rivet detail.

So if you follow the SAR drawings your model will not be the same as WHR 138 and 143.

Brian Meldon

[ADanti]

Hi Brian,

thanks for pointing that out - indeed I noticed some optical differences in the drawings compared to the pictures I took of the 143 (which would be the one I'd like to model), it's a point I'll have to keep in mind
and adjust the 3D design accordingly. I am already aware that there will be many design & 3D printing iterations before I can consider the model completed :)
Luckily I took more than 300 pictures of the 143 from all sides when I traveled last april from Caernarfon to Porthmadog (including the top, thanks to the bridge at Caernarfon station).

BR
Alex

[ADanti]

As promised, a first "artist's impression" of the engine frame with attached front.

as said earlier, "a small step for a locomotive..." :D

BR
Alex

[B.Meldon]

Is this an over-lay for an existing chassis? Or is it for a scratch built chassis?

If it is scratch built where do you intend to get the wheels from?

Also you have probably already worked this out but in 00 scale model form for 009 track you have to build the NGG-16's as if they were 2 foot 3 inch gauge.
If you make the frames, cylinders and motion to the correct scale distance apart the 9mm gauge wheels will not fit between them!
Also to work well on 009 track the wheel treads need to be wider than true scale, adding further the the width.

Brian Meldon

[ADanti]

Hi Brian,

it will be a scratch built chassis. I will most likely machine the wheels with the lathe and the mill that I have in my workshop.

For my own purposes, the NGG will have to run on a standard N gauge Peco rail - therefore I will adapt everything to make sure that it runs on the gauge I'll have on my layout.
I know that it is not "true to scale", but it's a compromise that I decided/accepted earlier on in my modelling concept, as I prefer to stick to what's industrially available when it comes to rails.

As I mentioned earlier, this build will be subject to many iterations, therefore I'll work out the details as soon as I discover what works and what doesn't, then adapt the 3D model accordingly.

Please keep your comments coming! Those help me think about things that I might miss given the lack of experience, or make me rethink what I have already decided :)

BR
Alex