Peco 9 inch radius electrofrog points

[danny]

Am I correct in thinking these are not currently in production? All the ones I can find (009 or N) are either insulfrog or a larger radius.

[Hobby]

You are, it was decades ago when they were last made! Shame though, I think many people would like to see their return...

[cp.409067]

You are, it was decades ago when they were last made! Shame though, I think many people would like to see their return...

*

If Blair will be kind enough to permit the observation -

"Hear, hear!"

In this matter I heartily agree. Well said Blair.

[And declaring an interest, not only would they be appreciated by "OO9" and "HOe" modellers, but could also be of considerable value to of us who might want to contemplate minimum space layouts in "O9".]



CP

[danny]

You are, it was decades ago when they were last made! Shame though, I think many people would like to see their return...

I thought so. Are they to return as part of the changes to Peco's ranges of 009 track?

[rod335]

I think I heard in the past that they were to have been introduced as Electrofrog but tooling difficulties arose. So they were introduced with dead frogs but with the understanding that they would be retooled with live frogs in due course. Mind you, when that might be is anyone's guess.

[danny]

I think I heard in the past that they were to have been introduced as Electrofrog but tooling difficulties arose. So they were introduced with dead frogs but with the understanding that they would be retooled with live frogs in due course. Mind you, when that might be is anyone's guess.

It's a shame as the smaller radius is useful for industrial prototypes, which also tend to be the ones with 4 wheel locos for which plastic frogs are more of a problem. I think for now I will have to investigate other options. The flywheel in the new Minitrains locos is already reducing the number of stalls so it may just be a case of adapting the points to have a shorter dead section. The layout on which I'm currently working has N gauge track with alternate sleepers removed to give a Hudson/Decauville sectional track sort of feel, but if they aren't available in N either that's beside the point.

[cp.409067]

I think I heard in the past that they were to have been introduced as Electrofrog but tooling difficulties arose. So they were introduced with dead frogs but with the understanding that they would be retooled with live frogs in due course. Mind you, when that might be is anyone's guess.

My understanding was that the original intent had been that they be "unifrog". This would have permitted their use as live frog or insulated. Sadly this was changed to "insulfrog" much to the huge disappointment of those of us whose exhibition experience means we know the value of "electrofog" types.


CP

[Hobby]

If Blair will be kind enough to permit the observation -

"Hear, hear!"

In this matter I heartily agree. Well said Blair.

:)

Nice to end the year like this, Chris! I only tend to use 9" in the fiddle yards, but there they are a great space saver!

[jimowers]

My understanding was that the original intent had been that they be "unifrog". This would have permitted their use as live frog or insulated. Sadly this was changed to "insulfrog" much to the huge disappointment of those of us whose exhibition experience means we know the value of "electrofog" types.
CP
[/quote]

You are I think correct as the original Unifrog idea had to be abandoned because of product problems. Peco make them in larger gauges where they have proved popular.

I have used the Insulfrog versions very successfully in exhibition conditions. Unless you have dodgy locos then 0-4-0 locos will work fine with these at sensible speeds. There are many myths about dead frog points. If they were as unreliable as people suggest on the forums then the majority of manufacturers who make these instead of live frog would not do so.

I would suggest that you give them a try before dismissing them.

[danny]

You are I think correct as the original Unifrog idea had to be abandoned because of product problems. Peco make them in larger gauges where they have proved popular.

I have used the Insulfrog versions very successfully in exhibition conditions. Unless you have dodgy locos then 0-4-0 locos will work fine with these at sensible speeds. There are many myths about dead frog points. If they were as unreliable as people suggest on the forums then the majority of manufacturers who make these instead of live frog would not do so.

I would suggest that you give them a try before dismissing them.

I have read elsewhere on the forum your suggestion of using phone vibration motors underneath 90 degree crossings. Would this also work for Insulfrog points? (Incidentally I note that in some other gauges first radius electrofrogs are not always available.)

[B.Meldon]

In 9mm gauge Unitfrog design points still have a dead section that can cause locos to stall. At about 2mm long it is not as big as a complete plastic frog, but it is far from ideal. In larger scales or with locos with multiple wheels and contacts this is not a issue, but it would be in 009.

I was told some time ago that an electrofrog version of the 9 inch 009 points will be developed, but it is not a priority for development at Peco.

It should be noted that a 9 inch radius 009 electrofrog point would require unique metal rail parts different to those used in the N gauge inch points that are all dead frog.
The 9 inch dead frog, 12 inch, 18 inch Y and

[danny]

In 9mm gauge Unitfrog design points still have a dead section that can cause locos to stall. At about 2mm long it is not as big as a complete plastic frog, but it is far from ideal. In larger scales or with locos with multiple wheels and contacts this is not a issue, but it would be in 009.

I was told some time ago that an electrofrog version of the 9 inch 009 points will be developed, but it is not a priority for development at Peco.

It should be noted that a 9 inch radius 009 electrofrog point would require unique metal rail parts different to those used in the N gauge inch points that are all dead frog.
The 9 inch dead frog, 12 inch, 18 inch Y and

[rod335]

It doesn't actually matter how long we spend debating/arguing about this here. My understanding is that 9" radius points , whether N gauge or 009, require different tooling from all other N gauge and 009 points and that tooling, for whatever reason, has not been done yet. When it has been done and I have no knowledge of when that might be, unifrog points will appear. Until then all you can do is wait. But for what it is worth, I have yesterday and today been using my N gauge Setrack test track with the dead frog points and my four-wheeled Rustons with a wheelbase of 10.5mm, run through them without stalling at any speed.

[danny]

It doesn't actually matter how long we spend debating/arguing about this here. My understanding is that 9" radius points , whether N gauge or 009, require different tooling from all other N gauge and 009 points and that tooling, for whatever reason, has not been done yet. When it has been done and I have no knowledge of when that might be, unifrog points will appear. Until then all you can do is wait. But for what it is worth, I have yesterday and today been using my N gauge Setrack test track with the dead frog points and my four-wheeled Rustons with a wheelbase of 10.5mm, run through them without stalling at any speed.

I would be happy to keep using them, I was just curious about the availability of live frog points and the possibility of saving myself trouble later on. From experimenting so far I think the flywheel on the new Minitrains locos has ironed out most of the problems I have experienced with dead frogs and 4 wheel locos in the past. A little more thought on my part could perhaps have avoided a situation where the loco has to be stopped so close to the point, but obviously having track that is clean and level also helps. The other options that I can see are either to build a point from scratch (which I don't think I currently have the skills for) substantially rebuild the set track point (possibly more complex than starting from scratch) or find and expensively buy a second hand one from when they were previously manufactured. This all takes up a huge amount of time on what was supposed to be a quick project so I think for now I will keep the set track point and work round any slight problems it might throw up.

[Hobby]

What mystifies me whenever we discuss this is that they DID produce them at one point (!) so what happened to the tooling that they used?