Uncoupling at exhibitions

[danny]

Has anyone seen a layout using manual uncoupling (i.e. with a handheld tool) at an exhibition recently? The reason I ask is that it seems to me that it is becoming less common. Currently I am constructing a micro layout which will require a lot of uncoupling, but since this will require individual Roco/Minitrains skips to be uncoupled and in various locations I don't think fixed ramps or magnets are going to give the flexibility I might need. I have always used an uncoupling tool in the past and would happily continue but I always feel that people (at exhibitions) judge the layouts negatively based on the use of manual uncoupling irrespective of the quality of other aspects of the layout.

[Graeme Dunbar]

It seems to be more common with larger models and things like (semi) prototypical 3-link couplings. Also with knuckle type couplings where a "poke and twist" action is employed.

I'm not sure my hands would be steady enough to uncouple individual 009 skips manually, especially at an exhibition where I might be behind the layout leaning over rather right in front of the wagon in the line of sight.

My impression of exhibitions is that exhibitors run a reduced complexity routine to reduce the chances of things going wrong and to keep things moving.  Is considering a number of "set piece" moves for exhibition use and putting ramps in the appropriate places and have the option of more complex manual operation as conditions permit?

[danny]

Is considering a number of "set piece" moves for exhibition use and putting ramps in the appropriate places and have the option of more complex manual operation as conditions permit?

This is something I am considering, but my concern would be that the ramps will not work well because the wheelbase of the wagons is too short. The main point of the layout is to shunt the wagons underneath the loose gravel loader (which ironically works without any problems so far), swapping them round to allow each wagon to go under the chute, and then re-form the full train and leave again. I think I will need at least one ramp on each siding. I could use Greenwich couplings with delayed uncoupling and one magnet off stage but these may not be easy to fit to Roco skips.

[B.Meldon]

I can confirm that the use of uncoupling ramps with Roco/Mintrains small four wheel wagons is not easy, but it is achievable with great care and precise adjustment of the ramps and couplings.
I have two layouts that have extensive hands free shunting etc. one an exhibition layout the other at home, both have ramps for uncoupling.
A lot of the coaches and rolling stock we have use the Roco wagons as bogies complete with couplings and these work very well indeed, however to get this to work requires every coupling loop to be perfectly horizontal and at exactly the same height. On the layout at home the ramps are worked with electromagnets, the height these go up is critical and requires exact adjustment. Too high and the ramps will hit the axles and lift the vehicles, too low and they will not uncouple properly.  The exhibition layout uses hand control wire in tube for the ramps so how high they lift is down to the eye of the operator.
So in conclusion if you adjust all the couplings on every item and adjust every ramp precisely it will work with very few problems.
In regard to the location of the ramps some careful thought will be needed. If you wish to disguise the ramps then it is possible to make them look like a section of sleepers with ballast, but we just paint them all rust brown the same colour as the rail sides, sleepers and ballast.

Brian Meldon

[cp.409067]

..... but I always feel that people (at exhibitions) judge the layouts negatively based on the use of manual uncoupling irrespective of the quality of other aspects of the layout.

*

In my opinion such judgements are entirely correct and appropriate. When exhibiting a layout one is essentially engaged in offering a theatrical presentation to the public. This of course means that legitimate artiface is necessary in the creation of an illusion of reality. The intrusion of an out of scale "hand of God" from the sky destroys this and is therefore to be avoided.

CP

[danny]

So in conclusion if you adjust all the couplings on every item and adjust every ramp precisely it will work with very few problems.
In regard to the location of the ramps some careful thought will be needed. If you wish to disguise the ramps then it is possible to make them look like a section of sleepers with ballast, but we just paint them all rust brown the same colour as the rail sides, sleepers and ballast.

Brian Meldon

I think I should be OK regarding identical coupling height since the wagons will all be Roco skips (other wagons may not fit under the gravel loader).

In my opinion such judgements are entirely correct and appropriate. When exhibiting a layout one is essentially engaged in offering a theatrical presentation to the public. This of course means that legitimate artiface is necessary in the creation of an illusion of reality. The intrusion of an out of scale "hand of God" from the sky destroys this and is therefore to be avoided.

CP

This was my original point but equally some uncoupling ramps can be very obtrusive and spoil the layout, so there is a point where they become worse than manual uncoupling, which at least only momentarily spoils the illusion. However, I think I have now worked out a way of creating hands free uncoupling ramps using the Peco parts I was originally planning to use but substituting a smaller and less noticeable ramp in place of the Peco one. The rods to operate it will be hidden by styrene conduit which I can then hide or paint to represent some sort of drain or electric cable across the quarry floor.
Danny

[B.Meldon]

So in conclusion if you adjust all the couplings on every item and adjust every ramp precisely it will work with very few problems.
In regard to the location of the ramps some careful thought will be needed. If you wish to disguise the ramps then it is possible to make them look like a section of sleepers with ballast, but we just paint them all rust brown the same colour as the rail sides, sleepers and ballast.

Brian Meldon

I think I should be OK regarding identical coupling height since the wagons will all be Roco skips (other wagons may not fit under the gravel loader).

Danny

Sadly you will find that new out the box Roco skips often have wire coupling loops that are not quite correct. I have found that many need fine adjustment to get them spot on. But once done they are good for ever unless damaged.

Brian Meldon

[danny]

The ones I will be using are part of my existing stock and have worked reliably for several years, so I should be OK on that front.

[Hugh Norwood]

I have successfully done some shunting (at exhibitions) while co-piloting John Varley's Ghylldale. This was while John was engaged in driving trains round the layout. He has permanent magnets at places on the dockside.

[danny]

I have successfully done some shunting (at exhibitions) while co-piloting John Varley's Ghylldale. This was while John was engaged in driving trains round the layout. He has permanent magnets at places on the dockside.

Was this with Greenwich couplings though? This would allow magnets to be used as they have to be 'pulled down' as opposed to 'pushed up' like standard Bemo/Roco/Minitrains couplings. I will be sticking with the original couplings on my skips because the couplings are very small and integral to the frame, changing them would make them incompatible with my other stock (including older/less regularly used items that would never get converted) and also because I feel having the loops on both ends is useful for keeping small wagons coupled together.

[Hobby]

Regarding "realism" using automatic uncoupling is just as unrealistic as hand uncoupling. In the real thing there would be a bloke running around doing the job so having auto uncoupling is just as bad as there's no-one there at all! In fact you could argue that at least when using your hand to uncouple you are following prototype practice! ;)

[danny]

Regarding "realism" using automatic uncoupling is just as unrealistic as hand uncoupling. In the real thing there would be a bloke running around doing the job so having auto uncoupling is just as bad as there's no-one there at all! In fact you could argue that at least when using your hand to uncouple you are following prototype practice! ;)

This is a very good point, and perhaps one solution is to have a few figures standing in appropriate locations to give the impression of this. I think with manual uncoupling on this layout, quite apart from the question of realism, I would find that I would constantly be hitting the loading hopper or tipping the small wagons off the track with the uncoupling hook. In the absence of a trained woodlouse with a figure (complete with shunter's pole) on his back  ;) :D, I think everyone has to find an uncoupling method that works for them, and I was just going to try out a hands off uncoupling method this time to see if I prefer it. Some modern coupling designs such as buckeyes are automatic and do not require anyone on the ground but this is not particularly relevant to industrial narrow gauge.

[Graeme Dunbar]

..... but I always feel that people (at exhibitions) judge the layouts negatively based on the use of manual uncoupling irrespective of the quality of other aspects of the layout.

*

In my opinion such judgements are entirely correct and appropriate. When exhibiting a layout one is essentially engaged in offering a theatrical presentation to the public. This of course means that legitimate artiface is necessary in the creation of an illusion of reality. The intrusion of an out of scale "hand of God" from the sky destroys this and is therefore to be avoided.

CP

My opinion is that it can be one or the other. Just like there is more than one type of theatre, there is more than one way to put on a display of railway modelling. The full

[cp.409067]

Regarding "realism" using automatic uncoupling is just as unrealistic as hand uncoupling. In the real thing there would be a bloke running around doing the job so having auto uncoupling is just as bad as there's no-one there at all! In fact you could argue that at least when using your hand to uncouple you are following prototype practice! ;)

*

I cannot and do not deny that this is essentially correct as regards "realism".

However, pending the day when there are available miniature, to scale, working figures (at reasonable cost) we must make use of that essential aspect of theatre - the willingness to use our imagination.

When operating or viewing a layout we do this with regard to passengers getting in and out of carriages, wagons and vans being loaded and emptied, locomotives being refuelled and watered, etc.

We can at this time portray the movement of whole trains, locomotives shunting, and so on in scales such as 4mm/ft and smaller. That is worth doing, worth doing well using automatic couplings, and permits theatre to fulfill one of its primary functions - to evoke reality in the process of telling a story.

That said there is no reason why those who want to engage in "hand of God" activities cannot do so if that is their wish. And equally they cannot complain if such activity is judged negatively by those of us who understand and believe in the theatrical approach to exhibiting a layout. At a production of "Macbeth" the audience will accept the apparent death of King Duncan without demanding an actual corpse on stage.


CP

[Hobby]

the willingness to use our imagination.

Exactly... And so to criticise someone for the use of the "hand of god" when so many other compromises are glaringly apparent on our models seems to me to be to be a bit rich! ;)