The Society Heritage Collection

[JulienW]

I think you have to consider the 'purpose' of the collection in the round. We are a Society composed of (mainly)small-scale railway modellers who happen to have found themselves in possession of various historic models. They were not acquired for any specific purpose other than to save them from being metaphorically thrown away. As such we have never either considered or known what to do with them. Indeed, whilst there seems to be a certain amount of fervour at present for letting the membership see them, until recently they never, or hardly ever, saw the light of day. They could have gone to Expong with more notice, with respect, a request on the net the day before the event is not practical in any terms!

I cannot say I am happy with the collection being permanently dispersed amongst the groups if I am still required to maintain the items. This was suggested to me about eighteen months ago and I said I would resign the post of Heritage Officer if this were to be forced on me. I do not want to sound too dictatorial on this but I would not be at all happy if my only contact with the items were to be having to repair them after someone had broken them.  That doesn't read quite as I intended it to but I can't think of a better way of putting it!

There is no suggestion that area groups should not display the items.

I think that much of that first paragraph hits one of the problem nails firmly on the head.  Much of the collection was donated to and accepted by the Society to avoid it going in the bin! At the time the overriding need was to save it - the problem now is that we don't really know what to do with it.

Now on to the second paragraph. Please don't take this the wrong way Rod but your (repeated) comments in this respect come across a little as though you view the Society's collection as your own personal property.  I am sure that this is not the case Rod but it might give some people the wrong idea (I think you realise that too), but I can understand that you do not want the work you have put in to be undone and  009 Society assets damaged through others carelessness.

My own view is that other than producing articles for 009 News (which still hasn't happened in the last 8 or 9 years) the only ways for members to see items in the collection is to either travel to Rod's home for a private viewing (if Rod is up for that!) or for the models themselves to travel about the country (not ideal but possibly more convenient for all).

The problem is that if models travel from Devon to a show then back again, then do the same trip to another exhibition the next month, and so on, then they are more likely to suffer problems. The solution, in my view, is to apply some Museum Practice to the collection - something that I had offered to do when I first made the offer to manage the collection as a co-opted "Heritage Officer" back in 2008/9 when Simon Coward was Chairman.  The first thing to be done once the collection had been sorted into "we'll keep these" and "dispose of these" groupings would be to have the collection properly packed in custom made inert foam and Sampsonite flight cases (both of which I had already acquired prior to my offer being declined by the Committee!) rather than scrappy tissue paper and an assortment of card boxes. Once packed into a number of cases each flight case would contain a selection of items, and those groups within the Society who have got display cases and undertake publicity displays on behalf of the Society (Swoons, Sussex Downs, West Mids and Bill Luty - there may be others I've forgotten) would get a selection of stock in a flight case (or cases) with guidelines as to what to do / not do with them (with respect to running, general care & handling, etc.) to minimise any damage.  Every so often - annually at the AGM seems the best suggestion I can come up with - the 'traveling' collection would be brought together and the cases rotated between the groups and the 'stored' collection (also packed up in flight cases),with records kept as to who has what and how long it has been 'out'.

The downside is that the groups doing the displays would not be able to have specific models if these were in different flight cases as each case would be made up of a reprisentative mix of the collection rather than there being, for example, a case of David Mander models, and a case of Aire Valley locosk, and so on.  Having proper packing and handling instructions should minimise damage, and by rotating the flight cases between the 'display' groups items in the collection would be more widely seen by both the membership and the public, and by rotating flight cases between 'display' and 'store' the time on display would be spread across the whole collection rather than being concentrated on a small number of 'star' items.

As to maintaining items then the amount of work is dependent on what level the maintainance is being maintained at (!). Perhaps we should be concentrating on the visual appearance - so that something that is a loco actually looks like a loco as it did when David Mander (for example) handed it over to the Society - but not get hung up on keeping the things running so that, for example, if a motor burns out then that's it - no more running sessions for that loco, but if the chimney falls off then it should be stuck back on (and done in accordance with collection guidelines too!) with a record of the work done on each item being logged for future reference (as this should highlight repeated problems).  The issue (for me) is that if things are in working order then they can (and will?) be used, and if used then they will wear out.  If they are not working, they can't work and therefore will not wear out (or will do so much more slowly in line with entropy).  Again, maintanance (its level or even if it is done), 'restoration' or 'conservation' is something that a "Heritage Policy" would include, along with what kind of items we may want to add to, or dare I say have removed from, the current collection to develop the collection for the future.

[JulienW]

Oh no! Not another committee! Endless hours of talking and nothing ever resolved.

Definition of Brexit.

Surely a definition of politics in general! ::)

[Malcolm]

I read this thread with a certain amount of deja-vu as the Society is now confronting many of the questions that raised themselves when the P D Hancock Collection started of its own volition. 

Like the Heritage Collection the PDH Collection came about to avoid it going in the bin and we, i.e. the Edinburgh and Lothians MRC, had to decide pretty quickly what to do with it.  In agreeing what to do with it I was probably quite lucky in that the club and myself, as custodian of the collection, were very much on the same wavelength and we were able agree on a way forward.  My remit has a fair bit of slack and there is an element of trust involved on both sides but here I been helped by the fact that I have known some of the club members for over thirty years but basically, if an item has a PDH connection we are interested in acquiring it and conservation is my watchword with the work undertaken to an artefact the minimum required and above all leaving as much of Philip's original handiwork untouched. 

To digress a little here.  The Society Heritage Collection appears to contain locomotives and a few items of rolling stock and not much else.  Should we not also be giving consideration to what we would do if say an Aire Valley building was to arise from the ashes or a layout of 'significance' were to offered?  What if a comprehensive paper archive relating to not only the 009 Society but narrow gauge modelling in general was offered to the Society.  Would it accept it? Should it accept it?  There is more to heritage than locomotives!

As I said in an earlier post we should have details of the heritage collection published in the 009 News and on this website however these things can take time.  I had to wait a year to get the 'Whatever Happened to Craigshire' published in the Railway Modeller and as I was under a gagging order the expanded article could not be published in the 009 News until after publication in the RM so not everything can proceed as quickly as you like.   In the case of the heritage collection the difficulty I had should not cause any delays in details appearing in the 009 News however the detailed research can take considerable time and delay matters.

Now we come to the problem of moving sometimes delicate old things around the country.  Ask the owners of Peter Denny's Buckingham,  Frank Dyer's Borchester or even P D Hancock's C&MR you will find a certain reluctance to move these valuable old layouts and their stock around the country except for special exhibitions.  Slowly but surely the movement, vibration and general handling [white gloves anyone?] leads to damage.  Even a fixed layout such as John Ahern's Madder Valley has its problems especially when it comes to keeping the locos and rolling stock moving albeit on a few select dates only.     When 'Dundreich' and some of the original locos appeared at the 009 Society Conmvention yours truly was nearly wetting himself in case anything went wrong with the borrowed locomotives and stock.  As it was 'Alistair's' motor did not burn out and I was mightly relieved to return the models to their then owner with only a few broken steps and a non working Christine who's Lima chassis gave up the ghost, but of course as it was a r-t-r chassis was easily replaced.   With regard to the locos with unique mechanisms the one way round the problem is to build a replacement mechanism and retain the original mechanism as a museum model, indeed this also has the advantage of letting the interested view the inside of the loco something that under normal viewing conditions is not possible.  I am actively building a look a like [replica would be too strong a word to use] fleet of models for the C&MR including, a Heljan replacement for 'Alistair', but whilst that allows the layout to be operated without fear of damaging the original stock it still does not solve the problem of the delicate nature of the track and scenery.  Maybe I should just build an all new C&MR?

With regard to any work undertaken on any of the C&MR stock or the layout itself all the work has been photographed both before and after and a full written description logged.

As someone who has direct involvement in maintaining an ancient piece of 009 history I hope some of my ramblings will provide some assistance to you all in your deliberations.

Malcolm 




   

[MickT]

Nice one Malcolm! Will your "lookalike" Heljan Alistair be finished in Hancock's Improved Engine Green (lined of course)?

Although I have removed myself from taking part in active/contentious discussion about the Society's Heritage Collection on here, I'm still monitoring the topic closely and with great interest. Whatever people's views on the matter are, and there are clearly a variety of differing views, it is encouraging to observe the amount of interest that has been shown by members - 6 pages in less than a month, which I think is unprecedented for the Society members forum, more in the league of what we see on NGRM!

Mick

[danny]

At the time the overriding need was to save it - the problem now is that we don't really know what to do with it.

Doesn't this invite yet another comparison with full-size heritage railways, for instance the locos that were saved 40 years ago and still await restoration?

Perhaps Heljan could do a C&M livery Manning Wardle as a limited edition  ;) - though from reading the Heljan thread it may turn out to be less reliable than the original...

[rod335]

Julien, I am sorry but I cannot let your last post go without comment. I shall try to be brief but that may not be possible. Firstly, I do NOT regard, in any way, the collection as being my own. When I was appointed to the post as Heritage Officer I sought and received clarification from the Board as to my remit, indeed at the last Board Meeting I received an unsolicited endorsement of my work. I have operated within that remit. Perhaps you should reflect on the fact that since my appointment, not only have the items been restored but have also been displayed more times than in the twenty years before. I appreciate your attitude to the collection and why you hold that attitude but we are, with respect, diametrically opposed on this and will probably remain so. I feel we need to view the matter in perspective. We are NOT dealing with priceless relics of a centuries old previous civilisation, we are talking about a few models made 60+ years ago about which probably less than a couple of dozen of our members have more than a passing academic interest in. We are at present, at least, thankfully, not bound, unlike Pendon with the Madder Valley, by the regulations of the Charity Commissioners, admirable though they may be in other circumstances.

To read your posts it would appear that I have savagely set about the collection without any regard for its importance. In the main, all I have done is carry out minor bodywork repairs such as resoldering broken handrails, as well as adjusting pickups and motor brushes and adjusting gear meshing. Hardly the sort of work that requires documenting.

There are three locos I have carried out somewhat more extensive work on. They are:-

1. AVR Anne. The original Triang X04 motor had one armature pole down. Since I did not have a replacement X04 and did not know where to source one I modified an unused and superior MW 005 replacement (supplied FOC by me) to fit. No other alteration was made to the loco, the work is completely reversible if necessary. It is exactly the sort of thing Derek would have done if he had still had the loco.

2. AVR Monarch. I made and fitted two replacement crankpins and reassembled the valve gear on one side of each bogie which was hanging loose. The loco now works.

3. AVR Forney. This had a severely bent chassis and both the trailing truck and headlight were missing. I made a bracket for the headlight and fitted the new headlight supplied for the purpose by Garry Whiting. I straightened the chassis and constructed and fitted a new trailing truck. I also made and fitted replacement cab steps which were missing and straightened and strengthened (internally with brass strip) the cardboard cab sides which had bowed inward badly. Although references in the RM at the time repeatedly state that the loco had a Romford Terrier motor, when received by me the motor was a Mabuchi Mighty Atom. Whether this was replaced by Derek or a subsequent owner of the loco is not known and to a degree underlines why we should not be TOO precious about these things. Incidentally, when I discussed these locos with Derek he was completely at ease with me working on them and gave me his blessing. What I would never do is alter the external appearance of the models.

This has become a much longer post than I intended it to be. However, I do feel that in the period I have had custody of the collection, I have done much more for its well-being than any one elsetodate. Thanks are due to Mick Thornton for photographing  and cataloguing the collection, the only other person to my knowledge who has had any positive input. No one else has either seemed or wanted to do anything with it.

Again, apologies for the length of this post.

[Elmgate]

They could have gone to Expong with more notice, with respect, a request on the net the day before the event is not practical in any terms!

Rod, My suggestion was not intended to be practical, more a comment that the opportunity had been missed since the topic arose only around that time! The prospect of displaying anything from the Society has not been offered to our, or any other Group, so far as I am aware, as my recent message stated; once again, perhaps my comments did not come accross as intended. All I tried to say is that, if Members want items to be displayed, and subject to Committee agreement, the means to display them are availlable.

I will now retire from this discussion, as we seem unable to play fairly, without taking offence!

[rod335]

I neither took nor wished to give offence! If I had known even one day earlier items could have been got to Expong.

[JulienW]

Julien, I am sorry but I cannot let your last post go without comment. I shall try to be brief but that may not be possible. Firstly, I do NOT regard, in any way, the collection as being my own. When I was appointed to the post as Heritage Officer I sought and received clarification from the Board as to my remit, indeed at the last Board Meeting I received an unsolicited endorsement of my work. I have operated within that remit. Perhaps you should reflect on the fact that since my appointment, not only have the items been restored but have also been displayed more times than in the twenty years before. I appreciate your attitude to the collection and why you hold that attitude but we are, with respect, diametrically opposed on this and will probably remain so. I feel we need to view the matter in perspective. We are NOT dealing with priceless relics of a centuries old previous civilisation, we are talking about a few models made 60+ years ago about which probably less than a couple of dozen of our members have more than a passing academic interest in. We are at present, at least, thankfully, not bound, unlike Pendon with the Madder Valley, by the regulations of the Charity Commissioners, admirable though they may be in other circumstances.

First off, with respect Rod in my post I said:

Now on to the second paragraph. Please don't take this the wrong way Rod but your (repeated) comments in this respect come across a little as though you view the Society's collection as your own personal property.  I am sure that this is not the case Rod but it might give some people the wrong idea (I think you realise that too), but I can understand that you do not want the work you have put in to be undone and  009 Society assets damaged through others carelessness.

As to your remit, as an ordinary member of this Society I do not have any knowledge of what that is and how it relates to the Heritage Collection (other than you 'look after' it - which has a broad range of meaning), as those conversations took place within meetings where I was not present and I have never felt the need to ask the current Secretary for minutes of each and every Committee meeting. Perhaps I should so that I may be better informed.

I am pleased that items have been displayed 'more times since (your) appointment than in the last 20 years'.  However, on reflection can only recall seeing any of the Heritage items on display at a handful of occasions (40th Convention, SWOONS members day 2017 and maybe 2 or 3 others), so either I haven't been paying attention or have not been attending the same events at the Heritage Items.  Equally I hope that you are not implying that during my time as Secretary and custodian of the Heritage collection I neglected my duties towards displaying it.  Whilst in my care a selection of items was displayed at every National Model Railway Exhibition at the NEC (so at least once per year) and other venues in the West Midlands when I attended with the West Mids Group publicity stand.  I would have been happy for them to be displayed at other Member's days and relevant shows (009 AGM, ExpoNG etc.) but I don't recall ever doing so because I don't recall ever being asked!

I am glad that you can recognise where I am coming from with my views on the collection, but I'm not sure that you do understand or appreciate them.  I agree that we are not talking about "priceless relics of a centuries old previous civilisation", but to denigrate the work done by the pioneers of our hobby as "a few models made 60+ years ago about which probably less than a couple of dozen of our members have more than a passing academic interest" is, to me anyway, an alarming statement to be made by Committee Member / Elected Officer responsible for safeguarding the collection.

Nowhere have I suggested that the collection become an 'official' museum and have no intention if inflicting the  Charity Commissioners et al on anyone - I know what they are like!  The point I am trying to make and seem to be failing to is that museums and museums professionals deal with this type of material on a day to day basis, so when it comes to the continuing care for the collection (for example) why are we not trying to follow what is already being done by those very same professionals, especially when such 'care of collections' advice is available (and offered) freely?

To read your posts it would appear that I have savagely set about the collection without any regard for its importance. In the main, all I have done is carry out minor bodywork repairs such as resoldering broken handrails, as well as adjusting pickups and motor brushes and adjusting gear meshing. Hardly the sort of work that requires documenting.

There are three locos I have carried out somewhat more extensive work on. They are:-

1. AVR Anne. The original Triang X04 motor had one armature pole down. Since I did not have a replacement X04 and did not know where to source one I modified an unused and superior MW 005 replacement (supplied FOC by me) to fit. No other alteration was made to the loco, the work is completely reversible if necessary. It is exactly the sort of thing Derek would have done if he had still had the loco.

2. AVR Monarch. I made and fitted two replacement crankpins and reassembled the valve gear on one side of each bogie which was hanging loose. The loco now works.

3. AVR Forney. This had a severely bent chassis and both the trailing truck and headlight were missing. I made a bracket for the headlight and fitted the new headlight supplied for the purpose by Garry Whiting. I straightened the chassis and constructed and fitted a new trailing truck. I also made and fitted replacement cab steps which were missing and straightened and strengthened (internally with brass strip) the cardboard cab sides which had bowed inward badly. Although references in the RM at the time repeatedly state that the loco had a Romford Terrier motor, when received by me the motor was a Mabuchi Mighty Atom. Whether this was replaced by Derek or a subsequent owner of the loco is not known and to a degree underlines why we should not be TOO precious about these things. Incidentally, when I discussed these locos with Derek he was completely at ease with me working on them and gave me his blessing. What I would never do is alter the external appearance of the models.

Thank you for clarifying what you have done to the collection items as this is not something I think you have done previously.  As you had not told us what has been done it was difficult to know whether work was being done in sympathy with the items or with the aim to get everything up and running regardless of it's importance.

Were I in your position I would be keeping some form of notes so that we can avoid issues, such as those you mention with the AVR Forney's motor, in the future and have a better idea of what was Derek's original work (for example) and what is the work of you and subsequent custodians. Furthermore, keeping notes as and when any work is done avoids trying to recall what you did at some point in the future and will make life easier for those who follow you as custodian's as they can use your notes as established practice / guidelines (i.e. 'do not change the external appearance of the models') rather than trying to work it all out again from first principles. But I'm not in your position, and it seems that helpful suggestions from someone with a knowledge of how the professionals manage such collections (or even direct from those same professionals) are (still) not wanted by those on the Committee.

As an aside I also found Derek to be very helpful when I contacted him about his locos with a view to making a new trailing truck for the Forney (using K's wheel sets as per the original that were offered by another Socieity member) so that when displayed it did so with a horizontal boiler, but never had the opportunity to carry out the work I had planned to do.

This has become a much longer post than I intended it to be. However, I do feel that in the period I have had custody of the collection, I have done much more for its well-being than any one elsetodate. Thanks are due to Mick Thornton for photographing  and cataloguing the collection, the only other person to my knowledge who has had any positive input. No one else has either seemed or wanted to do anything with it.

Again, apologies for the length of this post.

I am sorry that you feel that it is only you and Mick who have had a positive input and that "No one else has either seemed or wanted to do anything with it", despite my posting on this discussion what I did with the collection whilst in my care (to recap in case you missed it: a basic photograph of every item and a full catalogue in the form of a database which once handed over to the Committee we discovered was not compatible with Microsoft software so Mick ended up having to repeat much of what I had done) and my offer to the Committee at the time to serve as an co-opted officer to look after the collection and what I intended to do in that role - an offer that was declined at the time...

Perhaps part of my problem is that as someone who had an input and interest in the collection in the past I sometimes find it hard to let go of my former responsibilities.  It is just that based on my limited knowledge I remain to be convinced that what is being done with it and what is planned to do with it is the best thing for the collection.  I suspect that one of the main reasons for my lack of conviction is that neither "what is being done with it" or "what is planned to do with it of which" seem to be clear to me at the moment (at least), and it is quite possibly the case that none of the elected officers know for sure either when it comes to the latter, which I am sure does not help your position, and for that you have my sympathies.

Rod, I am pleased that someone - finally - is in a position to do something with the Heritage Collection and I am sorry if my comments have touched a raw nerve.

[MickT]

A quick notice:

Rod contacted me by phone this evening in response to a PM I sent him earlier today.

He has informed me that his laptop gave up the ghost this afternoon so he is, hopefully only temporarily, out of action and cannot reply to anyone at present. I have told him that I will make a posting on here with his apologies as he is concerned that anyone who has made postings about the heritage collection recently that prompts a reply from him may think that he is ignoring them.

Particularly appropriate as it happens in view of Julien's posting above, which I would imagine Rod would wish to reply to.

My own quick response to Julien as my name was mentioned:

I too think that Rod was incorrect in his feeling that only he and myself have made any positive input with the collection. I have informed Rod of the good work you did when you held it, to first of all bring it all together into one safe place which I remember was quite a task for you at the time as it took quite a bit of effort to get some people who had some of the items out "on loan" to return them, to make the first inventory of it as it stood at the time, and to try to get committee policy regarding safeguarding it and providing the means to make safe storage facilities for it etc. I think he realises the amount of input that you had and the contribution you made.

Mick

[Hobby]

Which takes us back full circle to what several of us said many pages ago...

We as a Society need to decide what the PURPOSE of the collection is!!!


In my own view it is to show the early days of NG modelling and allow people to see how far we have come, thus encouraging people to join us and have a go. It can't do that only coming out 3 or 4 times a year...

I've seen (a very small number) of the collection even less times than Julien so I don't go with the assertion that it's been out and about. In Julien's earlier post he outlined a very good way for the collection to be seen by all of us who attend NG model railway shows, and even showing it to the wider public (a good way of getting new members I'd have thought, showing how far NG modelling has come, I can't think of any other Society that are doing the same) using the flight cases. This will mean that the collection will be away from it's "home base" for much of the year but it will be in safe hands (unless people think that the members who hold the display cabinets are not to be trusted?!). They can return the cases every so often (once a year?) for any maintenance to be carried out and for the various cases to be rotated around the Display Case Holders.

I really can't see any issue with that and it does get the Collection out and about to be seen by the many, not the few. I get the impression that it would not be acceptable to some, can they please explain why and also what they feel the purpose of the collection is and what their objections are to the collection being loaned out to trusted members of the Society for display purposes on a wider basis than at present?

[gtmspyder]

Oh dear, what a kerfuffle all this has turned into, and all because clayliner came up with an eminently reasonable suggestion that the "Collection" be available as pictures with perhaps a potted history of why they are deemed to be worth collecting.

Quote:-  



The Society Heritage Collection

[JulienW]

<snipped>

My own quick response to Julien as my name was mentioned:

I too think that Rod was incorrect in his feeling that only he and myself have made any positive input with the collection. I have informed Rod of the good work you did when you held it, to first of all bring it all together into one safe place which I remember was quite a task for you at the time as it took quite a bit of effort to get some people who had some of the items out "on loan" to return them, to make the first inventory of it as it stood at the time, and to try to get committee policy regarding safeguarding it and providing the means to make safe storage facilities for it etc. I think he realises the amount of input that you had and the contribution you made.

Mick

Thanks Mick - I was beginning to think I'd imagined doing that...

[Turin 60]

All, I have today sent an E-mail to David our society Chairman asking that time be given to discussing the collection at the committee meeting in January.

John Bruce No7.

[Hobby]

Thanks John...