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Diamond crossings - fact or fiction?

Started by clayliner, May 31, 2015, 10:27

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clayliner

May 31, 2015, 10:27
During last week's session of the Sales Team there was a brief discussion - we are sometimes allowed to talk while we work - about diamond crossings. Specifically, someone asked what R-T-R diamond crossings were available in 009, to which the reply was: "Why would anyone want one?" There seemed to be a general consensus that in real life narrow gauge railways would always have gone for the more useful (though not necessarily cheaper) option of a pair of points.

Is this true? While I suspect it may well have been for British-type lines I wonder if they were more common on 'main-line' type lines on the Continent and elsewhere?

Can anyone suggest any prototypes? (If diamond crossings were rare presumably single- and double-slips were even more so?)

And does any member admit to having such crossings on their layout, and how do they justify it? (I am aware of John Wilkes's crossings featured in the News in 2011.)

David.
The Burnbake and Woodyhyde Railway Company

Graeme Dunbar

#1
May 31, 2015, 16:10
Simple answer don't know!

What I have observed though is that diamond crossings seem to be very popular in American models, particularly switching layouts.

Rival railroad companies crossing each other's lines almost seems to be a stereotype.
Graeme Dunbar - 4441

JulienW

#2
May 31, 2015, 19:35 Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 19:36 by JulienW
One example of a diamond crossing which comes to mind is Tooban Junction on the L&LSR in Ireland, and I have a feeling that there was a scissors crossing (4 points with a diamond in the middle) at one of the Manx Northern stations (a terminus).

There are probably lots of other examples on industrial lines - I think there were a couple at Guinness in Dublin (see https://irishwaterways.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/22-inch-railway-tracks-at-storehouse-entrance-01_resize.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/pgl5pJe.jpg) and several more on the 18" gauge lines in the UK.

And I have built such a beastie...



And even a dual gauge (6 and 9 mm) one (not that the 6mm gauge will be working)...



... for the new Latham's Brewery layout.
Julien Webb - 1720

MickT

#3
May 31, 2015, 19:44
Just from the immediate top of my head (there's plenty of space in there), here's two layouts for starters:

1. Ted Polet's Craigcorrie & Dunlaistair has a diamond crossing in Dunalistair harbour where the coal jetty line crosses the feeder line to the quayside. If it looks OK on the C&DR then it is OK anywhere!!

2. Graham Lindley's Lyddbridge has one just outside the station that is sited in the middle of a level crossing.

There will no doubt be many more, these are just two that immediately come to mind.

Mick

Krizzy

#4
May 31, 2015, 21:44
I think Julien means Foxdale on the Manx Northern. Was'nt there a crossing at Dinas on the original North Wales Narrow Gauge Rly giving access to one of the loco or carriage shed roads.

Roger

B.Meldon

#5
June 01, 2015, 09:43
I have always found that diamond crossings in 009 are a complete pain!

The problem I have found is that inevitably there will be one chassis or another that has the exact same wheel base as the gap between the two frogs.

In ready to run 009/H0e Egger-bahn made a 90 degree crossing. There are three versions of these. The first type had nickel silver rail but had N gauge size sleepers with larger than N gauge gaps between them.  The second version had the same small sleepers but was fitted with steel track and the third version had larger sleepers irregularly placed and steel rail. All three types had dead frogs and rather large flange gaps that the smaller wheels tend to drop down.

All the ready to run N gauge crossings including the new Peco examples have a dead section at the crossings and at slow speeds this combined with the length of the wheel base will cause the loco to stop. For example the N gauge Peco SL-E393F fine scale electrofrog short crossing has dead sections that are spaced exactly the same as the wheelbase for the Liliput four wheel diesel! The result is that this loco will stall at slow speeds going across the crossing. But other locos have problems with other makes and sizes of crossings.
With four wheel locos even if the wheelbase is not the same as the gap between the frogs one wheel will lose electrical contact on the dead section again vastly increasing the chances that the loco will stall at slow speeds, just like it does with a dead frog point.

Because of the above I always try to plan out any crossings at the design stage.

It is however possible to make a successful crossings in 009/H0e using an all live frog arrangement with small flange gaps. But unfortunately many of the older N gauge chassis in use in 009 need larger flange gaps.

Brian Meldon
Brian Meldon

Krizzy

#6
June 01, 2015, 10:49
When I first built 'Crummack' back in the mid 1980's I included a diamond crossing and as Brian said it was a complete pain. When I got Crummack back a few years ago the first thing was to remove the crossing and alter the pointwork to eliminate the need. Now operating the layout is much more satisfying. Advice given to people when asked is not to have any diamond crossing on their layout. As mentioned in earlier posts in real life they were very few and far between. In an industrial setting they were probably more common with tracks going everywhere connecting the different warehouses, workshops etc and would need hand-built track to make the layout look more realistic.

Roger

JulienW

#7
June 01, 2015, 11:03 Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 11:12 by JulienW
Quote from: Krizzy on May 31, 2015, 21:44
I think Julien means Foxdale on the Manx Northern. Was'nt there a crossing at Dinas on the original North Wales Narrow Gauge Rly giving access to one of the loco or carriage shed roads.

Roger

Foxdale - that's the one!  Thanks Roger.

I'd forgotten about Dinas too.

Quote from: Krizzy on June 01, 2015, 10:49
<snipped>In an industrial setting they were probably more common with tracks going everywhere connecting the different warehouses, workshops etc and would need hand-built track to make the layout look more realistic.

Roger

That's the justifications I'm using.  The 18" gauge line in the second photos is hand worked and moves the wood from the woodshed (where there may or may not be something nasty...) to the cooperage. The crossing one allows a siding (the line top to bottom of shot) to get to a warehouse across one of the lines heading off to the fiddle yard (left to right) that links into the line cutting across the top right hand corner of the shot.

it's handbuilt and stock can be pushed through with a finger (digital operation?) - the fun bit will be the wiring as the crossing is in one side of a triangle!

Julien Webb - 1720

Elmgate

#8
June 01, 2015, 11:05
Quote from: Krizzy on May 31, 2015, 21:44
I think Julien means Foxdale on the Manx Northern. Was'nt there a crossing at Dinas on the original North Wales Narrow Gauge Rly giving access to one of the loco or carriage shed roads.

Roger

Roger is correct about Dinas Junction - the loco shed road crossed the "main line" to reach the loop. The only reference I can lay my hands on quickly is in Peter Kazer's Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling book, but I am satisfied that his drawing of the area is correct!

DeadHorse

#9
June 01, 2015, 23:46
Quote from: Elmgate on June 01, 2015, 11:05
Quote from: Krizzy on May 31, 2015, 21:44
I think Julien means Foxdale on the Manx Northern. Was'nt there a crossing at Dinas on the original North Wales Narrow Gauge Rly giving access to one of the loco or carriage shed roads.

Roger

Roger is correct about Dinas Junction - the loco shed road crossed the "main line" to reach the loop. The only reference I can lay my hands on quickly is in Peter Kazer's Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling book, but I am satisfied that his drawing of the area is correct!
I have pondered about the Dinas loco shed access road crossing and it seems to me to be very awkward to say the least.
None of the track diagrams I have found seem to be at all reliable either. Some even suggest that there was only one running line under the bridge which is quite obviously wrong.

engerth399

#10
June 02, 2015, 09:20
Hi
Boyd has layout drawings for Dinas for 1880 and 1920 both showing the crossover.  There appeared to be a diamond crossover in Le Mans between the Tramways de la Sarthe and the town's electric trams.
In Austria there were a few examples of diamond crossovers but between ng and sg lines, for instance at Kienberg-Gaming where there was also a mixed gauge turntable.

Peter

Elmgate

#12
June 02, 2015, 10:42
The first two are inconclusive, and appear to show the loco shed track meeting the main line (left hand track) but the, better, 1918 map distinctly shows the track crossing the main line into the headshunt from the loop. This corresponds with the arrangement show by Kazer.

jimowers

#13
June 02, 2015, 12:43
The RNAD Dean Hill had one and it was part of a track plan which stimulated me to build the layout which John Gilby now exhibits.
I agree that they are a pain but I used a Peco N Gauge Setrack diamond with every other sleeper removed. I took the precaution of siting a mobile phone vibrator unit underneath to jog along ny loco that got stuck. Not ideal but the best I could do at the time.

tebee

#14
June 05, 2015, 21:55
The Le Mans diamond crossing was interesting and probably unique as it was on a bridge in the middle of the river !








Now who will be the first to make a model of that and wait for the comments at the exhibition about how unrealistic it is ? Note also how the road and the tram track in the first photo disappear in to a strategically placed tunnel.


Tom
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