New Peco 9 inch set track 009 points

[B.Meldon]

Here is a photo of the handmade prototypes of the 9 inch Peco 009 points on show at the Nuremburg toy fair.



(Originating web page: http://schmalspurbedarf.de/2703-h0e-weiche-22-5-grad-rechts-peco-st-u405.html)



(Originating web page: http://schmalspurbedarf.de/2704-h0e-weiche-22-5-grad-links-peco-st-u406.html

Unfortunately for all DC users these are going to be

[jimowers]

There appears to be a lot of negativity about this development on the Peco announcement thread and it seems that this is a repeat of what has been said numerous times by the so called 'experienced modeller'.
I want to start this thread by saying that whilst this is a 'one size fits all' approach for many it is common sense. There is a large majority of us who want to just build layouts and run trains and this new development will fit the bill nicely. I also want to give credit to Peco who are doing their utmost to move OO9 on and promote it to new users.
Yes, we want reasonable running and, yes, we want something that is easy to install and use. I am a firm believer in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) approach to modelling. If Peco has created a single product that allows us all to model then what else do we want? Being a Peco product, it will work out of the box and for most of us it will not need any changes. If you want to do 'black belt' trackwork then you can modify it or you can decide to build your own trackwork  if you have infinite time available.
I see no problem with the Unifrog approach and many thanks to Peco for supporting OO9 as much as they have been doing recently.

[B.Meldon]

If these are 'simple' Jim please explain how you would electrically isolate a fan of sidings using DC control and Unifrog points.

Brian Meldon

[jimowers]

What I am really hoping is that we can wait until Peco releases the product. At that point I am sure your concerns will be removed. I am sure they would not make a new product that does not work properly.

[Hobby]

Why can't we wait and see when they come out? At the moment all the "criticisms" are guesswork, as Dave said on NGRM, Brian, please wait and see before making assumptions. If you concerns are borne out when they are released then fair enough but at the moment this is criticism which is not based on experience of the real thing so we should wait.

[jimowers]

Why can't we wait and see when they come out? At the moment all the "criticisms" are guesswork, as Dave said on NGRM, Brian, please wait and see before making assumptions. If you concerns are borne out when they are released then fair enough but at the moment this is criticism which is not based on experience of the real thing so we should wait.

Hear, hear.

It worries me that this sort of topic will put off new members who will think that trackwork is so complicated that they will not bother. As a society we really need to encourage these new members as none of us are getting any younger!

[Pete Williams]

On the other hand, brian, i'm building a dcc layout and am surprised at what a pain in the backside it is in fitting two insulated joiners at every point and all the trackfeeds needed .

[DeadHorse]

Sorry to be an old duffer, but are 'unifrog' the same as 'insulfrog' as far as the froggy bit goes?

[gallopingalice]

If I was designing a universal point so that the frog could be live or insulated, then I'd make the frog from conducting metal but not connect it to any other bit of rail, not even the switch blades. I'd add a length of wire to the frog so that the live froggers could connect it as required. All insul-froggers could cut that wire off, if so inclined.
Voila! There is now no need for any insulating rail joiners at all.
How KISS is that.

Have Peco not done just that?

[B.Meldon]

There are some pre-production photos now, but please note that these may not be the same as the final production items and they may not show the insulating gaps in the rails. So as has been said we need to wait to see exactly how the frog, frog check rails, frog V and the blades are going to be wired and where any insulating gaps will be in the rail.





(Originating web page: http://www.preorderwithlendons.co.uk/index.asp?search=Railways-20OO-9-20%28Hoe%29-20Gauge&showorder=partnumber&check=yes&searchme=Peco-20Setrack-20OO-9-20Gauge)

Brian Meldon

[B.Meldon]

Sorry to be an old duffer, but are 'unifrog' the same as 'insulfrog' as far as the froggy bit goes?

No Unifrog is very different to electrofrog. In general the Unifrog points are good for DCC users but not so good for normal DC users.
However from what I understand the main reason Peco are going over to Unifrog for all new points is so they only need to make one type of point, not both electrofrog and insulfrog.


The following only applies to the Peco H0n30 unifrog points, the new 9 inch 009 points may not be the same, we will only know when they are released.

Here is a photo of the frog section of a Peco H0n30 unifrog point note the plastic insulating 2mm dead sections in the rail at the lower end of the frog and the gaps circled in red at the top end of the frog:



The frog is a single part with the frog check rails and the frog V electrically connected to a wire that comes down under the point. The frog is insulated from all the other rails on the point but it can be powered using the wire from a frog polarity switch to make it live.

Each blade is electrically connected to the adjacent fixed outer rail all the time.

The two diverging rails, seen here above the frog are not connected to each other but are again each electrically connected to the corresponding blade. (Right diverging rail to the left blade, left diverging rail to the right blade.)


So from new the H0n30 Unifrog points provide no electrical insolation when they switch and the only way to power the frog is with a frog polarity switch.

To make a unifrog point isolate the tracks as they switch you need to cut the wire between the fixed rail and the blade. They then rely on the blade to fixed rail contact for powering the two diverging tracks, unless a frog polarity switch is fitted and wired to both diverging rails.

To make a Peco H0n30 Unifrog point electrically the same as an electrofrog point you need to cut the link between the blades and the fixed rail and fit a frog polarity switch to power the frog. But as the blade to fixed rail electrical contact is unreliable (just like it is on an electrofrog point) you also need to solder wires from the frog polarity switch to each of the two diverging rails.

In short for a DC user with an electrofrog point with a frog polarity switch there are no wires to cut on the point and only three wires to solder between the track and the switch.
But with a Unifrog point you do have to cut the links on the point and have to solder five wires to the frog polarity switch to get the same functionality.

I think that for DC users Peco recommend not cutting the blade link but fitting two insulating fishplates to the diverging rails then using switches to turn the tracks on and off.

But as I said the above only applies to the Peco H0n30 Unifrog points, the 9 inch 009 points may not be the same.


Brian Meldon

[rod335]

Peco have one of my Dirty Doris Rustons which is used, amongst other things, to test new track. It runs happily through the new points with a wheelbase of 10.5mm, so the points should be good enough for most people. The only points the loco doesn't like are the new curved points (N gauge?) which, because of the radius, have a lot longer dead section.

[rod335]

I have recently learned that the first issue of the Setrack 9" radius points are likely to be dead frog. Later versions may well be live frog but it seems unlikely they will ever appear as Unifrog. So plan accordingly.

[jimowers]

Once again we have these 'special inside track' sources which cannot be corroborated.

I contacted Peco only a week ago and they assured me that the Unifrog version of Setrack will be out Q1

[Darren Hedges]

Jim, I've just read the same report, and I would suggest that it's from a very reliable source, in fact from someone who probably knows better than anyone the current situation regarding developments at Peco.

Darren