Rabbit Warren for the Young and Old!

[Roy Parkes]

Hi all,

Just returned to 009 having been away since (1992/93), I am hoping to build a layout that will not only provide me with some modelling but also be of interest to my three young grand children.
Thinking of a rabbit warren layout (should provide interest for the young ones), are they a real no, no, notice there is one in my first issue of 009 news.

Any guidance as to where I can find possible track plans and picture of layouts of this type would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Roy.

[MickT]

Welcome back to 009 Roy! Rabbit Warrens are still with us and some are very good indeed - after all, Dick Wyatt's famous Dovey Valley has a trackplan that cannot be denied is a big rabbit warren and nobody that I know of has derided that layout!

There have been a number of the type shown at NG shows in recent years and as a starter perhaps you may want to have a look through some of the layouts featured in my roving reporter photo reports in my blogsite at:

http://micksrovingreporter.blogspot.co.uk/

which is a fairly comprehensive coverage of most of the NG layouts shown at most of the mainly NG specialist events since Jan 2008. If I've counted correctly there are 84 reports and several hundred NG layouts. I'm sure there must be something there to tweak your interests!

Happy viewing and hope you find something to inspire you further

Mick

[Hugh Norwood]

Welcome, Roy. Do have a browse through Mick's photos. I can recommend you should join a local group, too; you'll be sure to find welcome wherever you are!

[B.Meldon]

Welcome to the forum and indeed welcome back to 009.

This is Meanderbahn:







Meanderbahn was designed and built by the late Jack Carter between 1979 and 1981. It was first exhibited in an uncompleted state in 1980 and when completed in 1981. I accompanied Jack with the layout at every show it has been to. Just to prove it here is a photo of Jack and I working the layout back in 1982:



Despite its age today the layout still looks like new as it is kept in a specially built storage box that lives under the main layout:



Meanderbahn has about 35 feet of track in a single circuit with three passing loops; one of these is out of sight at the back of the layout. There is also a cut off line that we use only occasionally usually after a viewer has spent a few minutes looking at the layout and thinks they have sorted out where all the tunnels go! We run three trains simultaneously between the passing loops, using dead sections to ensure they stop in the correct place in the loops and that they do not run in to the back of the proceeding train. We then switch the loop points and run three more in the other direction.


We also sometimes keep an identical loco and train, normally a Roco 0-6-0 and three Jouef toastracks, set up in the third out of sight loop but heading the opposite direction to its twin, again this is only used to confuse!

It

[Roy Parkes]

Thanks to all for the helpful advice, will check it out over the next week or so as time allows.

Would 9" radius be the minimum to use if so that will decide what I may do as my max baseboard width is 18".

Roy.

[Elmgate]

IMHO 9" is too small for anything but the shortest of 0-4-0 locos, and small wagons. In any case, to fit 9" radius 180 degree curves will require 20" width to allow for at least 1" from centre line to the edge of board (and even this is tight, risking losing stock off the edge if it gets knocked or jogged!) So, if you really are restricted to 18", you will require 8" maximum radius curves. The minimum PECO point radius is 12", although these do not have to figure in the curves of course. The kind of stock suited to 9" radius includes the Minitrains range. Before Brian M says it - keep away from reverse curves without around 2" straight between the curves! If you can accept these restrictions, then you could do something at about 20" width, and 36 " long, but I would advise going slightly bigger - or forget going in a circle, and produce a linear trackplan?

As an example of a practical compact design, the Sussex Downs Group's new planned layout has 12" radius minimum, and results in baseboards 27" wide. We plan on two 48" x 27" boards, with a double deck fiddle yard at right angles from one end; we have spent many hours discussing getting a continuous run, and believe me, this is cramped! However, we have avoided multiple crossings and re-crossings, so that it does not appear to be a rabbit warren.

[George Surridge]

I have recently used Roco curve track for my mainly hidden full curve, this is 10 3/8 ins radius I think and it works fine with 0-6-0, 0-6-2 and 2-6-2 locos also Liliput 4 wheel coaches with longish wheelbase.  Fits nicely on2 ft wide board, I have placed fencing along front edge of track which should help save 'accidents'. Although at low ng speeds toppling off the track should not really happen?  ( Was it the Baldwins that toppled over in real life if stood on canted track, because of water all flowing to the lowest tank?).
George S

[David Prime]

The Peco track plan books always used to have a few ideas in their books. You usually pick one up quite cheap nowadays . If you Google tracks plans 009 rabbit warren and use " images " as the search I found quite a few track plans in seconds . Happy rabbit hunting !

[B.Meldon]

Meanderbahn has 9 inch curves and 9 inch Peco electrofrog 009 points. But you have to recall that back in 1979 Peco only made the 9 inch 009 points. It has 1 in 20 grades and measures 4 foot by 2 foot 6 inches in total.

As mentioned it is best to add at least an inch between the track centre line and the board edge and on a rabbit warren type layout you may wish to step the tracks at the front of the layout so that they are not immediately above each other, as has been done on Meanderbahn.
In general the tighter the curves the more work you need to do to get the locos and rolling stock to run successfully. Also the curves will need to be very well laid without any tight sections or kinks at the rail joints making the radii tighter.

The result is that 9 inch curves will either restrict the locos and rolling stock you can run or you will have to do more work on the couplings and any loco bogies to make them go around the tighter curves.

You will find that it is the coupling overhang that is the main issue with 9 inch curves in 009. Even some four wheel 009 wagons and coaches can give problems.

For Meanderbahn we only use 0-4-0 and small 0-6-0 locos with small overhangs and all the coaches and wagons we use have bogies with the couplings mounted on the bogies. (Most are Roco/Minitrains log bolsters that have built in couplings.)
However I also have other layouts that can run the larger locos and stock so for me this is not a problem. But if this is your only layout you may well need to get very inventive with couplings.
Ted Pollett has several good examples of how this can be done, but he uses N gauge couplings that help with this somewhat.

So although 9 inch curves are quite possible I would also recommend 12 inch curves as a minimum and also to try and avoid any reverse curves.

Brian Meldon

[gallopingalice]

Had you considered an industrial scene in 00f where the radii are about 4 or 5 inches?
richard

[Roy Parkes]

Thanks all for the info, having now read thru, it would appear that a rabbit warren in the space I have is really not a possibility if I want good running.

Living in a very small bungalow space is really at a minimum, I have a shelf in a cupboard for storage which is 38" x 20"deep and 15" high, therefore 2 hinged boards 36" x 18" is a maximum, giving a layout of 72" x 18" but that now seems out due to the max radius of curves being 7", a thought I have had is to perhaps to hinge the boards down the long sides which then gives me a 36" square board to play with and plenty of room for the larger radius curves.

I have read elsewhere on the web that the larger radius points are preferred to the smaller 12" radius type, is that correct as due to the lack of space I would think the smaller would suit my purposes better, and I would like a couple of sidings for interest.

Just thinking out a loud here.

[Graeme Dunbar]

Edit: sorry I just missed your reply.

You don't say how long the layout will be, but on the basis that it is 009 and the baseboard width is 18 inches, then as has been said there are limits on the size of stock. It means you have just enough width for curves at the ends and it will be a real struggle to make the track loop back and forth in rabbit warren style. Also, tight curves are one thing, but tight curves and steep gradients are harder to deal with.

For young children a continuous run is a good idea as it keeps things moving. At least part of the attraction of a rabbit warren (that of disappearing from view) can be provided by adding scenic breaks such as dividing the layout down the middle with a backscene so the viewer sees only part of the layout at a time. If the grandchildren are old enough to drive the trains then responsibility for controlling each visible section could be divided up.

Adding loops and/or sidings would add interest as the trains that depart and arrive will differ.

With simple wiring with the whole of the layout being 'live' apart from isolating sections in sidings and loops, control could be switched between two controllers. Part of the 'game' could be guiding the operator who cannot see the train as it vanishes from view to bring the train to a stop before passing control over to the other operator.

If the children are too small to drive the trains then a similar approach of dividing the layout into different scenes could be taken. Like garden design, dividing the whole into different 'rooms' adding scenic blocks and preventing the viewer from taking in the whole scene is what adds interest. Having to move to a different viewpoint to see the train is at least as interesting as seeing which hole a train pops out. However in a busy exhibition it can be difficult to view from each of the vantage points, especially if it means crouching down and peering, but there is no such limitation on a home layout.

Perhaps rabbit warren layouts are a way of providing that sort of 'mystery' when the viewer is forced to stand behind a barrier in a busy exhibition?

Carl Arendt's web site has a number of ideas for small layouts that are divided or contain view blocks.
http://www.carendt.com/

There are good examples on this forum too. Take a look a Nixnie. There is a lot of interest in a small space. Put yourself in a child's point of view and see how precipitous and dangerous it looks as the train crosses the gorge on the trestle bridge or imagine what there is behind Hagrid's door.

[Graeme Dunbar]

With our postings just passing each other in the aether, another thought occurs. If height is limited too, I would make best use of the height and borrow another trick of gardening in a small space. Also if the layout is to live in a cupboard and be brought out only when being used then the less time spent setting up and disassembling the layout the better so splitting the baseboard may not be such a convenient idea.

Sharp curves are 'doable'. Making sure the track is flat and there are no kinks or tight spots. Again to borrow from Nixnie, use Settrack to ensure this and put the track on a really solid base.

[Roy Parkes]

Nixnie, any ideas as to which points have been used, thanks.

[Frank]

Hi Roy,

There is a whole thread here on how Nixnie was built, well worth looking through it:

http://www.009society.com/forum/index.php?topic=883.0

The points are Peco I think.

Frank