Would this be too big???

[Ross Chapman]

Been having a nose about for a locomotive to use as the "flagship" of my fleet and I came across these good looking beasties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGR_Type_A_2-6-4T

Just wondering if people think these engines would be too big for a line set "somewhere in the Caribbean". I was thinking maybe a single example has arrived to "cope with extra traffic" resulting from the opening of a new port route and the older engines are left in charge of lighter traffic up the old main which has become a branch route..

[tedp]

Ian Turner built one. Here it is (nearly stuck) on Ryedown Lane, seen at Sparsholt last April.









The loco behind is my Lawley, which isn't a small engine for 009. I would say the class A is very big for most layouts.

[Ross Chapman]

Ahhh ok, I didn't realise they were THAT big. The look massive!!!

Might try looking at doing an "extended" version of the L&B MWs - just give it a slightly longer bunker to accomodate the extra trailing wheel.

That could work, not sure if I would feel confident with making up a brass bodyshell though!

[tedp]

Think of the Stenning whitemetal kit. I believe it is still available from Parkside Dundas. Modification with styrene sheet is easy. Use an N gauge chassis to turn it into a 2-6-4 or a 2-8-2.

[Ross Chapman]

Yeah I have an old Farish 4MT that I was going to take the chassis from to put under it. I found a box of old N-Gauge locomotives so I have a few odd chassis to use (a 4MT, a 4-6-4 (unmotored though), a trio of Jintys and what looks like an ancient Atlas 4-8-4 Northern).

I think the Northern might be a pushing it a bit far size wise though!

[JulienW]

Been having a nose about for a locomotive to use as the "flagship" of my fleet and I came across these good looking beasties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGR_Type_A_2-6-4T

Just wondering if people think these engines would be too big for a line set "somewhere in the Caribbean". I was thinking maybe a single example has arrived to "cope with extra traffic" resulting from the opening of a new port route and the older engines are left in charge of lighter traffic up the old main which has become a branch route..

In a word, no.

Given that, to me at least, your Carribbean Island railway is the main railway on the island (as opposed to somewhere like the UK, where NG lines were secondary feeders to standard gauge ones) then the line's loading gauge will be at the bigger end of the spectrum, and most likely 2' 6" gauge as opposed to 2' gauge.  With this in mind I'd suggest looking at the Leek & Manifold line in the UK, and the other lines around the world that E.R. Calthrop had a hand in, particularly the (2' 6") Barbados Railway. There are other candidates too where the narrow gauge formed the main and quite sizable railway networks (Sierra Leone, FCAB, parts of India, what used to be Yugoslavia, etc.).

Makes most of the UK narrow gauge look like toy trains...

[Ross Chapman]

Hum, ok I hadn't realised that. It sounds like you could really get some fairly large (and presumably powerful) locomotives.

The railway is supposed to be the only railway line on the island (which is meant to be about 2/3 the size of Saint Martin) it makes sense the stock would be larger. Maybe I could have some smaller stock as the older generation of power from when the line was first opened and the bigger engines as the "new generation" brought in as traffic increased.

I hadn't realised E. R. Calthrop had been involved in more than just the L&M, I will have to have a dig around and see what information I can find on other lines he was involved in.

[JulienW]

Welcome to the variety that is world wide narrow gauge! ;D

A mistake that quite a number of people make when starting out is that all narrow gauge railways are the same. To disprove this just stand on the platform at Pothmadoc station and compare the FR Prince on one platform to the ex South African Railways NGG16 on the other, both on the same track gauge but at opposite ends of the loading gauge spectrum! Even the earlier SAR locos were a bit on the big side, just like that Cape Government 2-6-4T.

I would have thought that the motive power history of your island railway would be similar to other lines in similar circumstances. The initial locos on the island would have been involved in the construction of the line, probably small 4 or 6 coupled tank locos to a loco builder's 'standard' design. I'm thinking of the 0-6-0T designs supplied to the Sierra Leone Government, or some of the standard Kerr Stuart locos like the Skylark, Tattoo or (slightly bigger) Brazil 0-4-2 designs. These would have been sold on by the contractor to the railway company (also it was probably not economic to ship them back to the UK) to run early trains though an alternative scenario is that these locos had been bought by the railway at the start and hired to the contractors.

The next development would probably have been a bigger 6-coupled tank with leading / trailing trucks, like the 2-6-2T Hunslets built for Sierra Leone, or possibly tender locos like the Naysmith Wilson 2-6-0 (mixed traffic) and 4-4-0 (faster passenger) locos supplied to Cyprus, who also had some 2-6-2T from the same builder. As traffic grew and train weights increased the locos got bigger - initially bigger cylinders & boilers but followed by more wheels, either moving to an 8-coupled design (tank or tender locos) and/or something articulated - Garratts more often than not, though occasionally Mallets or Kitson Meyers (Jamaca had some standard gauge KMs), possibly all 3 types as some lines initially ordered one of each for comparison purposes.

Railcars might make an appearance (steam is possible but petrol/diesel is more likely IMHO) from as early as the 1920s with diesel locos making an appearance from the 1950s onwards, though if your island has a heavy US influence then they might have arrived a bit earlier.

Hope that helps.

[tedp]

This one is very Caribbean. It started work in Panama and ended up in Puerto Rico.

Metre gauge 2-6-0, built by Cail in 1889 for the first Panama Canal project by De Lesseps.

[engerth399]

Hi,
If you want something bigger have a look at the Barsi Light (another Calthrop line) 4-8-4T's, like an enlarged Leek & Manifold 2-6-4T.
I've never seen a model of one (someone should now turn up a pic).

Peter

[JulienW]

Hi,
If you want something bigger have a look at the Barsi Light (another Calthrop line) 4-8-4T's, like an enlarged Leek & Manifold 2-6-4T.
I've never seen a model of one (someone should now turn up a pic).

Peter

I can't recall seeing one of the 4-8-4T types (Cyprus had some too, though I think these were a little smaller than the Barsi type rather than being a direct copy) or the earlier Barsi 0-8-4T as a model but I recall seeing a L&M kit body that had been fitted with an 8-coupled chassis and might have been a 2-8-4 - can't recall the builder though.

[Ross Chapman]

Oddly, I have actually been looking at the Barsi 4-8-4s, they look chunky without being too chunky.

At the moment, I am scratch-bashing a Smokey Joe into a 0-6-4T tank inspired by (but bigger than) the WHR's Beddgelert. At the moment it has a small bunker on the trailing end, but I suppose I could cut that with a small "passage" through the centre to turn it into a small 0-6-4.

Thank you for all the help and suggestions Julien, you seem very knowlegdable. I really want to start with some locos that wont "overpower" my first layout which is only 5ft by 2ft.

[JulienW]

Not knowledgeable, just well read!  My own NG interests lie at the bigger end of the scale so a lot of your questions are ones that I've asked myself.

By way of explanation here's one of my locos, a model of a 2-8-0 Baldwin tender loco supplied to Cuba.


DSCN3444 by webbcompound2, on Flickr

[Ross Chapman]

Ah well you may find I end up asking you a few questions then!

Just for info, this is the image I found of the Barsi 4-8-4T Sir Alec


Looks like a very compact coupled wheelbase to it.

As I implied before I am not confident with metal kits (soldering at any rate!) so does anyone know of a resin / plastic / 3D printed bodyshell kit for something like the L&M Kitsons that I could put onto a 8 coupled chassis?

I have seen the 0-10-0 and 0-8-0 PD Hunslet bashes that are for sale on here but I think they might be too modern considering I want to set my line ca. late 1913 / early 1914. I decided to move it forward a couple of decades as I really would like to eventually have a Garratt, or six!

[JulienW]

Ah well you may find I end up asking you a few questions then!

No problem with that at all Ross - happy to help.

Just for info, this is the image I found of the Barsi 4-8-4T Sir Alec
<snipped>

Looks like a very compact coupled wheelbase to it.

I think that they were. The Cyprus 4-8-4T (essentially a copy of the Barsi design)had a fixed wheelbase of 8' 3, as did the earlier Barsi 0-8-4T locos. That's only 33 mm for 009!

As I implied before I am not confident with metal kits (soldering at any rate!) so does anyone know of a resin / plastic / 3D printed bodyshell kit for something like the L&M Kitsons that I could put onto a 8 coupled chassis?

I have seen the 0-10-0 and 0-8-0 PD Hunslet bashes that are for sale on here but I think they might be too modern considering I want to set my line ca. late 1913 / early 1914. I decided to move it forward a couple of decades as I really would like to eventually have a Garratt, or six!

When it comes to metal kits, either white metal or brass, you do not have to solder them. Admittedly a stronger construction will result from soldering, and generally soldering is better on brass (certainly easier as you're less likely to melt the kit!) but all soldering is in essence is using metal as the 'glue'. If you get the chance to chat to Allen Doherty (a.k.a. Mr Worsley Works) at a show don't be surprised if you get a free soldering demo / lesson, though equally chat to anybody doing a soldering demo at a show as most of them are helpful.

I'm not sure about 3D printed stuff as it is difficult to keep up with what's available. CWR do some freelance 2-6-2T designs with a 'colonial' look to them, and I'm sure that there are some models of prototypes on Shapeways.  As to resin kits I have a feeling that Deans Sidings were talking about doing a resin L&M Kitson but I'm not sure how the project progressed.

The Sierra Leone Hunslet 2-6-2T was quite a long lived design with the first  three locos supplied in 1898. Admittedly these, another pair in 1900 and a final pair in 1901 had a slightly smaller diameter boiler (2' 6") than the later batches (3' 3"), but as I think that the first of the 'big boiler' types was sent out in 1903 then the only 'modern' aspect of the design is that the last ones went out in 1954, including the one preserved on the W&LLR (currently at Shildon). It should be fairly easy to backdate the Dundas kit to 1903 as it stands, and with a replacement smaller boiler (copper pipe, brass / plastic tube) converting to the first batches shouldn't be too difficult. Equally Hunslet supplied some 2-8-2 tanks to Sierra Leone in 1906 which look similar to the 2-6-2T design (longer, bigger cylinders and inside frames) so don't write off such Hunlset bashes just yet.