Wiring Peco 009 points

[stevefulljames]

I'm sure I've read this several times before, but could some please remind me how to wire Peco 009 points in order to electrically bond the blades to the stock rails and make the frog independently switchable. I'm reviving a layout that hasn't run for a year or so and the lack of power to the frog end of some of the points is very noticeable!

I will endeavour to post up a guide here with photos for posterity once I've done the mods.

[vulcan]

Hi there folks!
I'd be very interested in this answer as well. Also, as a very hamfisted solderer, can it be explained v e r y  s l o w l y how I can avoid melting the whole thing!!  :-\

Thanx

[rhydddu009]

My suggestion is don't and I'll tell ye why....  although in a lot of places this stock rail bonding is suggested (Hornby even produce small jumpetrs for 00 to make it even easier), you also need a break between that and the frog (or use insulfrog points), which is ok in most scales, but with peco 009 points there just isn't room to do so.  I've tried it and unfortunately it just means that the rails work loose and become unreliable. 

Instead I suggest you follow the tried and tested method of feeding from the toe and isolating the far ends, then use an accessory switch which 'feeds' the frog directly, thus avoiding the need to rely on the point blade to remain in contact with the stock rail for through continuity.  There is of course a small chance of a short then between the running rail and the other point blade, but in my experience that is rare unless you run seruiously out of gauge wheelsets.

Colin

[stevefulljames]

Instead I suggest you follow the tried and tested method of feeding from the toe and isolating the far ends, then use an accessory switch which 'feeds' the frog directly, thus avoiding the need to rely on the point blade to remain in contact with the stock rail for through continuity.  There is of course a small chance of a short then between the running rail and the other point blade, but in my experience that is rare unless you run seruiously out of gauge wheelsets.

I'm finding part of the problem is power supply to the blades themselves. Will this approach power them via the frog or will they still rely on contact through the stock rails?

[rhydddu009]

as long as you use electrofrog (the peco 009 points off the shelf are all electrofrog) then switching the polarity at the frog via a microswitch will power the blades too, meaning you can avoid the problem of requiring perfect contact between stock rail and blade - any bit of dirt/ballast etc causes serious unreliability if you don't.  But you must make sure you isolate the rails at the far end of the point if you have any other feeds further up the line, otherwise you'll get a short (+ and - on the same rail!)

Colin

[JulienW]

This is what I did on "Latham's Brewery" (aka the never ending story ;) )

Solder a wire to each of the stock rails (the ones which do not move) and also to the common crossing (or Frog) of the point.  Run these to a single pole, double throw (SPDT) switch.  Wire the frog to the common (center) contact of the switch and the stock rails to the outer contacts (poles) of the switch.  If you mount the switch not to far away from the point you can also use the movement of the switch to change the point using a 'wire in tube' method (I've used the plastic sliding type with a hole for the actuating wire drilled through the toggle on the switch).

Yes, you can melt the plastic parts of the point with the soldering iron, but I use an 18 (or 15) watt iron with a pinpoint tip (designed for soldering up circuit boards) and work quickly.

All I can asy is that it has worked for me...

[stevefulljames]

This is what I did on "Latham's Brewery" (aka the never ending story ;) )

Solder a wire to each of the stock rails (the ones which do not move) and also to the common crossing (or Frog) of the point.  Run these to a single pole, double throw (SPDT) switch.  Wire the frog to the common (center) contact of the switch and the stock rails to the outer contacts (poles) of the switch.  If you mount the switch not to far away from the point you can also use the movement of the switch to change the point using a 'wire in tube' method (I've used the plastic sliding type with a hole for the actuating wire drilled through the toggle on the switch).

Yes, you can melt the plastic parts of the point with the soldering iron, but I use an 18 (or 15) watt iron with a pinpoint tip (designed for soldering up circuit boards) and work quickly.

All I can asy is that it has worked for me...

Thanks guys. I'm already using miniature slide switches as the 'levers' for point control on another layout so this will be perfect.

[vulcan]

This is what I did on "Latham's Brewery" (aka the never ending story ;) )

Solder a wire to each of the stock rails (the ones which do not move) and also to the common crossing (or Frog) of the point.  Run these to a single pole, double throw (SPDT) switch.  Wire the frog to the common (center) contact of the switch and the stock rails to the outer contacts (poles) of the switch.  If you mount the switch not to far away from the point you can also use the movement of the switch to change the point using a 'wire in tube' method (I've used the plastic sliding type with a hole for the actuating wire drilled through the toggle on the switch).

Yes, you can melt the plastic parts of the point with the soldering iron, but I use an 18 (or 15) watt iron with a pinpoint tip (designed for soldering up circuit boards) and work quickly.

All I can asy is that it has worked for me...

Many thanks for the quite comprehensive replies!
Is flux cored (electrical) solder ok, or would one of the lower melting point jobbies be better? I'm a better mechanic than electrician :laugh:

[Graeme Dunbar]

Is flux cored (electrical) solder ok, or would one of the lower melting point jobbies be better? I'm a better mechanic than electrician :laugh:

Yes.
You want an iron that is up to the job (Watts) and of decent quaility (e.g. Weller, Antex or other known brand and not a "bargain" iron) , make sure the metal surfaces are clean (e.g. a glass fibre pencil), use some additional flux on the rails and pre-tin the wires.

Heat =/= Temperature.

If you have to spend an age fiddling about getting the rail up to temperature, trying to solder through oxide and other crud you are certain to melt the sleepers, but with practice and half decent equipment and preparation you can be in and out before the heat has time to spread far. Practice on some left-over rail is definitely worthwhile.

[rhydddu009]

normal electrical cored solder is fine, I also use some brown gungy flux paste too - brilliant stuff but so old I don't know if it's still available!  Colin

[vulcan]

Thanx for the help guys - I'll go & start burning my fingers! :-X

Live long & prosper

[Graeme Dunbar]

normal electrical cored solder is fine, I also use some brown gungy flux paste too - brilliant stuff but so old I don't know if it's still available!  Colin

Yes it is! - try Warton's brown flux jelly, e.g.:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Soldering-Equipment/Solder-Fluxes/Brown-flux-jelly/61559/kw/flux

There is also a "modern" equivalent in a spray,  e.g.:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Soldering-Equipment/Solder-Fluxes/Future-315-low-residue-no-clean-flux/60050/kw/flux

which could prove useful if you need to solder where it is difficult to clean up afterwards, such as making repairs when the scenery is down.  I don't use it with the spray, but apply the liquid with a cotton bud or needle and syringe.

The really aggressive fluxes (e.g. Fry's Power Flux) are only really useful where you can scrub the work under a tap afterwards.

[B.Meldon]

Unfortunately switching the frog is sometimes not enough. You may also find in time that the moving blades lose contact with the frog at the pivot. The pivot is basically a fishplate. Because of this I also solder a fine wire across this joint as well to make sure.
Brian Meldon

[stevefulljames]

I've been trying out the advice in this thread this evening and so far it's working perfectly :)

I will take and post a picture of a modified point when I have some daylight for others to reference. A few things I've found useful have been:

- solder the wires to the bottoms of the rails (cut away the webbing between two sleepers to get at it), this means the wiring will be invisible once ballasted and if you do happen to touch the wire on the sleepers you will be doing so on the bottom
- definitely pre-tin the wires, this avoids having to use three arms to hold the soldering iron, wire and solder to the point
- I bought some new wire today for this and got single strand in two out of three colours which I found very easy to solder but accidentally picked up normal multi-strand for my common return colour and I find this much harder to work with.
- work out which side of the points your wiring needs to come out of and orient the wires accordingly, this will make more sense when I post the picture

My confidence in doing this kind of work has risen enormously due to this discussion (and the adoption of single strand wire) so thank you all!

[Graeme Dunbar]

- solder the wires to the bottoms of the rails (cut away the webbing between two sleepers to get at it), this means the wiring will be invisible once ballasted and if you do happen to touch the wire on the sleepers you will be doing so on the bottom

Yes, I have done this with N gauge, or should I say n scale, track: pointed the wires inwards towards the center of the track, put a right-angle bend in the wires and fed them through a hole in the baseboard. 

- definitely pre-tin the wires, this avoids having to use three arms to hold the soldering iron, wire and solder to the point

Also tin the underside of the rail. Then the wire can be "sweated" onto the track with a quick touch of the iron and you don't need a third hand to hold the solder as you say.  8)