SEEP PM1 point motors and DCC80 Autofrogs

[Stephen Rainsbury]

FWIW I too never rely on the point blade contact and don't like the autofrog method.

Same here, keeping them spotless is very fiddly on something so small and the contact area is tiny. I have been experimenting with microswitches, but have just started looking at how I could make something simple and electronic that isolated the frog all the time the servo was moving and only reconnected it a few seconds later.
So far my solutions have worked, but have been too unwieldy and expensive, but I should be getting a lull soon in work so plan to spend some time then.

[Andy Lock]

In another thread Hugh says
"I have SEEPs under my layout - I have had no issues with them. I use a separate system to ensure power goes to the frogs. (Probably because of that, it means there is more latitude in positioning the motors under the baseboard).."

Could Hugh possibly elaborate please..

I would like to know what Hugh uses too, please.

Best Wishes

Andy

[Hugh Norwood]

Oh dear - it would require a new thread.
Plus it has evolved - and my newer method will be applied to my new "test track"

I do not know if it would work for DCC, as I am still in the dark ages of DC

let me get my thoughts together....

[B.Meldon]

...................I then had a reply from a nice man at Peco who told me that the short was due to my using the SEEP PM1 point motor. He said that because they use a frog polarity switch, this was conflicting with the point blades of the electrofrog points and causing the short. He said I needed to disconnect (cut) the wire going from terminal "F" of the SEEP PM1 to the frog. I did this and it cured the short and I was able to get locos to work. He also said that the frog wire from the PM1 was intended for use with insulfrog points only.

Best Wishes

Andy

What nonsense!

There are countless modellers that use the SEEP PM1's internal switch on electrofrog points as a frog polarity switch.
My guess is either you wired the D and E contacts on the motor to the wrong tracks (an easy error) or the point motor is not adjusted properly so that the internal switch is not moving correctly with the point blades.

[Andy Lock]

...................I then had a reply from a nice man at Peco who told me that the short was due to my using the SEEP PM1 point motor. He said that because they use a frog polarity switch, this was conflicting with the point blades of the electrofrog points and causing the short. He said I needed to disconnect (cut) the wire going from terminal "F" of the SEEP PM1 to the frog. I did this and it cured the short and I was able to get locos to work. He also said that the frog wire from the PM1 was intended for use with insulfrog points only.

Best Wishes

Andy

What nonsense!

There are countless modellers that use the SEEP PM1's internal switch on electrofrog points as a frog polarity switch.
My guess is either you wired the D and E contacts on the motor to the wrong tracks (an easy error) or the point motor is not adjusted properly so that the internal switch is not moving correctly with the point blades.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your reply. I have used black and red wires for the D and E contacts and double checked them as I went along and again when I connected them to the track, so I know they are correct.

I don't have anywhere near the experience that you have in model railways and I have no wish to upset you in any way, in fact I am very grateful for your input and advice.

The man at Peco said that 009 points are made differently from 00 gauge ones and therefore did not need the wire from the PM1 to the frog of the point. It does seem strange that when I disconnected the wire on each of the points, the short disappeared. I used a jig to mount the point motors and to the best of my ability, they are centred correctly. However because of the small distance that the blades have to travel on a 009 point (compared to 00 gauge) the internal switch may not be moving far enough.

If this problem was to occur on a layout of yours, what would you do to put it right?  Should I replace the PM1 point motors with a different make?

I look forward to hearing from you again.

Best Wishes

Andy

[B.Meldon]

If this problem was to occur on a layout of yours, what would you do to put it right?  Should I replace the PM1 point motors with a different make?

I look forward to hearing from you again.

Best Wishes

Andy

Hi Andy

For a start on a DCC layout every frog needs to be isolated using isolating fishplates on both the frog rails, but I would guess that you have done this already.

You also need to test the frog polarity switch is working as it should before you wire it up to the frog, using a meter. Switching the point using the motor, not by hand as you do this test. (You can do this test after the switch is wired up to the frog and rails by placing a thin bit of paper between the blade and the fixed rail.)

As I mentioned in a post above all my point motors are solidly mounted on a 1/4 (6mm) plywood trackbed.
I always mount the point motors that have frog polarity switches so they can be adjusted relative to the point.
With the SEEP ones this will require elongating the mounting holes.

You will need to adjust the location of the point motor relative to the point until the switch works in both directions as it should and then tighten it in position. This will probably not be the same on every point and may not always be central so a jig will be useless in this regard. Adjustment by hand is almost always necessary to ensure the switch is working as it should.

It is not a SEEP motor but to get the idea here is a photo showing a Peco point motor with a peco accessory switch mounted so it can be adjusted on my layout under test using a meter:

[Andy Lock]

If this problem was to occur on a layout of yours, what would you do to put it right?  Should I replace the PM1 point motors with a different make?
Hi Andy

For a start on a DCC layout every frog needs to be isolated using isolating fishplates on both the frog rails, but I would guess that you have done this already.

You also need to test the frog polarity switch is working as it should before you wire it up to the frog, using a meter. Switching the point using the motor, not by hand as you do this test. (You can do this test after the switch is wired up to the frog and rails by placing a thin bit of paper between the blade and the fixed rail.)

As I mentioned in a post above all my point motors are solidly mounted on a 1/4 (6mm) plywood trackbed.
I always mount the point motors that have frog polarity switches so they can be adjusted relative to the point.
With the SEEP ones this will require elongating the mounting holes.

You will need to adjust the location of the point motor relative to the point until the switch works in both directions as it should and then tighten it in position. This will probably not be the same on every point and may not always be central so a jig will be useless in this regard. Adjustment by hand is almost always necessary to ensure the switch is working as it should.

It is not a SEEP motor but to get the idea here is a photo showing a Peco point motor with a peco accessory switch mounted so it can be adjusted on my layout under test using a meter:

Hi Brian,

Thanks once again for taking the trouble to help me out. 

I already have isolating rail joiners on both of the rails at the "V" of the frog.

I assume that is a multi meter in your photo, I haven't got one and never used one either.  I found this one at Screwfix, would it be suitable to test the switch?  https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-mas830b-digital-multimeter-600v/75337

What do I need to set the meter to? Where should it be connected? What should the display show?
How do I know if the answer it gives is correct? Sorry for all the questions, but I don't know how to use the meter. I steer well clear of any electrical wiring and leave it to professionals, but as there is only a few volts involved in model railway wiring, I thought I'd have a go myself. I'm beginning to have second thoughts as I didn't realise there was so much that could go wrong.

Best Wishes

Andy

[B.Meldon]

Hi Brian,

Thanks once again for taking the trouble to help me out. 

I already have isolating rail joiners on both of the rails at the "V" of the frog.

I assume that is a multi meter in your photo, I haven't got one and never used one either.  I found this one at Screwfix, would it be suitable to test the switch?  https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-mas830b-digital-multimeter-600v/75337

What do I need to set the meter to? Where should it be connected? What should the display show?
How do I know if the answer it gives is correct? Sorry for all the questions, but I don't know how to use the meter. I steer well clear of any electrical wiring and leave it to professionals, but as there is only a few volts involved in model railway wiring, I thought I'd have a go myself. I'm beginning to have second thoughts as I didn't realise there was so much that could go wrong.

Best Wishes

Andy

My meter in the photo was about £5 around 15 years ago and almost identical ones are still on sale via e-bay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402412884525

It is usualy the leads that fail with time after a few years use not the meter and the leads can be replaced for under £3, or you can just get another meter with leads! They use a PP3 9v battery that costs £1 from poundland.

As can be seen in my photo it is set on resistance on the 2000k ohms scale. The meter should go to 000 when the point is switched one way and - when switched the other.

For a seep point motor you need to test between the F and D in one direction and then F and E in the other direction.

[Andy Lock]

My meter in the photo was about £5 around 15 years ago and almost identical ones are still on sale via e-bay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402412884525

It is usualy the leads that fail with time after a few years use not the meter and the leads can be replaced for under £3, or you can just get another meter with leads! They use a PP3 9v battery that costs £1 from poundland.

As can be seen in my photo it is set on resistance on the 2000k ohms scale. The meter should go to 000 when the point is switched one way and - when switched the other.

For a seep point motor you need to test between the F and D in one direction and then F and E in the other direction.
[/quote

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the information, I have purchased a multimeter so I'll see what that reveals when it arrives.

Best Wishes

Andy