SEEP PM1 point motors and DCC80 Autofrogs

[Andy Lock]

Does anyone know if it's possible to use the Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrog with a SEEP PM1 point motor that is attached to a Peco SL-491 / 492 electrofrog point?

Will it cause problems?

Should I just rely on the point blades to make the connection?

Andy

[B.Meldon]

It is just my opinion, but I would not use the autofrog or the pointblades.
I would just use the mechanical frog polarity switch that operates with the PM1 point motor.

The problem is the throw of the point is quite small so the mounting position of the point motor is critical to making the switch work with the point.

If you use a nice solid trackbed, 1/4 (6mm) plywood for example, and slightly extend the mounting holes in the point motor some adjustment is posiable and once adjusted you can just tighten the fixing screws. ('Soft' track bed materials are not so good for mounting point motors.)

Brian Meldon

[Julian Evison]

I know it is a minority view, but I just rely on the point blades to make connection. Slightly tweeking of the ends of the point blends (I do mean slight) is sometimes necessary to get good contact. Thereafter keeping the area clean of dirt is important and I sometimes run a graphite pencil along the contact area for good measure (though I have read of problems with doing this with DCC).

Please note all my experieince is with DC.

Julian

[Hugh Norwood]

Are you DC or DCC, Andy?

[andy1878]

Are you DC or DCC, Andy?

If DC then No. Different technologies. Use the Seep to switch the frog.

If DCC then yes BUT you don't really need it, use the Seep to switch the frog.

I'm guessing but as you asked I get the feeling that you may think that the DCC80 should some how be wired to the switch on the Seep. Its not.

[Hugh Norwood]

Are you DC or DCC, Andy?

If DC then No. Different technologies. Use the Seep to switch the frog.

If DCC then yes BUT you don't really need it, use the Seep to switch the frog.

I'm guessing but as you asked I get the feeling that you may think that the DCC80 should some how be wired to the switch on the Seep. Its not.

(too many Andys?)

I was asking the OP but yes - you answered the question  :)

...and I can only answer questions on DC!

[Andy Lock]

Are you DC or DCC, Andy?

It is a DCC layout.

Andy

[Andy Lock]

It is just my opinion, but I would not use the autofrog or the pointblades.
I would just use the mechanical frog polarity switch that operates with the PM1 point motor.

The problem is the throw of the point is quite small so the mounting position of the point motor is critical to making the switch work with the point.

If you use a nice solid trackbed, 1/4 (6mm) plywood for example, and slightly extend the mounting holes in the point motor some adjustment is posiable and once adjusted you can just tighten the fixing screws. ('Soft' track bed materials are not so good for mounting point motors.)

Brian Meldon

Hi Brian and everyone else,

Thanks for your replies.

The story so far;

After I had initially laid all the track and wired everything up, I switched it on for the first time and the NCE Powercab that I'm using started flashing straightaway indicating there was a short somewhere.

I checked all the wiring which appeared to be correct. I was advised to use the DCC80 Autofrog as this would definitely cure the problem, so I duly bought some but they are not fitted yet.

I then had a reply from a nice man at Peco who told me that the short was due to my using the SEEP PM1 point motor. He said that because they use a frog polarity switch, this was conflicting with the point blades of the electrofrog points and causing the short. He said I needed to disconnect (cut) the wire going from terminal "F" of the SEEP PM1 to the frog. I did this and it cured the short and I was able to get locos to work. He also said that the frog wire from the PM1 was intended for use with insulfrog points only.

He also told me not to use the DCC80 Autofrog, so they remain unused at present.

My locos will now go around my layout but at slow speeds they will stall on some of the electrofrog points, I'm just relying on the point blades now.

The locos I have are two Bachmann Baldwins and a Minitrains 0-4-0 Island Creek Coal Co loco.

This is the first layout I've built for a good number of years, and the first DCC one. I have dropper wires to every piece of track and all the points have droppers at the toe end. I've used insulated rail joiners at the "V" of each frog and also in the passing loops. It's laid on 6mm plywood.

I'm really at a loss to know what to do next to try and get the layout to work as it should.

Any other advice (preferably in words of one syllable) will be greatly appreciated.

Best Wishes

Andy

[Stephen Rainsbury]

He also told me not to use the DCC80 Autofrog, so they remain unused at present.

Hi Andy, good to hear the Peco were helpful, they are a pretty good company to deal with.
Did he say why he didn't like the Autofrog?  Was it something about that specific type or just the whole idea?

[Andy Lock]

He also told me not to use the DCC80 Autofrog, so they remain unused at present.

Hi Andy, good to hear the Peco were helpful, they are a pretty good company to deal with.
Did he say why he didn't like the Autofrog?  Was it something about that specific type or just the whole idea?

Stephen,

He said the Autofrogs were just not needed with 009 electrofrog points in the same way that the frog wire from the PM1 is not needed. Apparently the 009 electrofrog points are made differently from the 00 gauge ones. Adding the frog wire or an Autofrog will produce a short. It is fine to use them on 00 gauge.

Best Wishes

Andy

[Stephen Rainsbury]

He said the Autofrogs were just not needed with 009 electrofrog points in the same way that the frog wire from the PM1 is not needed. Apparently the 009 electrofrog points are made differently from the 00 gauge ones. Adding the frog wire or an Autofrog will produce a short. It is fine to use them on 00 gauge.

Hi, I don't have 00 ones here t compare against, although I thought that they had gone over to "Unifrog" now, just to complicate matters  :D

I suspect that he is assuming that the blade contacts will be good enough to make contact, but its not something I rely one. Yo already know that your controller is happy to deal with shorts so it might be worth trying the switch and autofrog again.

Just a thought, you do have insulated joiners connecting your frog don't you?

Stephen

[Hugh Norwood]

Are you DC or DCC, Andy?

It is a DCC layout.

Andy

Ah... Sorry - I can't help you.

[Andy Lock]

I suspect that he is assuming that the blade contacts will be good enough to make contact, but its not something I rely one. Yo already know that your controller is happy to deal with shorts so it might be worth trying the switch and autofrog again.

Just a thought, you do have insulated joiners connecting your frog don't you?

Stephen
[/quote]

Hi Stephen,

The man said that the use of a point motor would be enough to ensure that the blades made sufficient contact (as long as they are kept clean). The use of anything else on an electrofrog point would only lead to problems.

I have insulated rail joiners on the "V" of the frog on all the points.

Best Wishes

Andy

[andy1878]

It is just my opinion, but I would not use the autofrog or the pointblades.
I would just use the mechanical frog polarity switch that operates with the PM1 point motor.

The problem is the throw of the point is quite small so the mounting position of the point motor is critical to making the switch work with the point.

If you use a nice solid trackbed, 1/4 (6mm) plywood for example, and slightly extend the mounting holes in the point motor some adjustment is posiable and once adjusted you can just tighten the fixing screws. ('Soft' track bed materials are not so good for mounting point motors.)

Brian Meldon

That rings a bell. I remember having lots of bother setting these up, from memory (vague) the pitch of the seep terminals is not optimum to the throw required and it was all too easy to get stopped mid point (terrible pun) thus causing a short. (both rails connected to the frog, thus together, at the same time.) This was one of the reasons I stopped using them.

FWIW I too never rely on the point blade contact and don't like the autofrog method.

[andy1878]

In another thread Hugh says
"I have SEEPs under my layout - I have had no issues with them. I use a separate system to ensure power goes to the frogs. (Probably because of that, it means there is more latitude in positioning the motors under the baseboard).."

Could Hugh possibly elaborate please..