I have been reading the threads on Peco 009 points ref. electrical bonding of blades to stock rails by connecting a switch to the frog and stock rails.
In a nutshell I was wondering if anyone know of a relatively simple method of doing this with the points in situ on the layout. I didn't realise that this option would help better running until it was far too late - about 5 years too late !
It is possible I think to drill the baseboard and solder in the new droppers but has anyone come up with a less difficult process. All of my points have point motors but access to them is very difficult
Thanks
Bob
You are not alone with this problem. Many 009 modellers will build a layout assuming that the Peco points will work perfectly straight out the box, unfortunately many later discover through use that this is not the case.
There is no easy way to sort this out.
The best option is forward planning as I am sure you will do when you build another layout. But that will not help you with your present situation.
One option is to fit a set of contacts on the top surface of the layout using a simple rod system connected to the sole bar (The bit the point motor rod is located in.) Peco actually make a top mounted point motor base than can be adapted to take their accessory switch only, but these are bulky units, you may find it preferable to make something yourself using a two way micro-switch.
I have many point motors mounted on the top of the base board and I hide these with removable scenic sections, line side buildings or small huts. (All removable for access.) As a set of contacts would be somewhat smaller than a point motor this should be quite possible for you to do the same with the additional contacts.
As to the wires that are required it is again quite possible to run these on the top of the base-board to the switch and then disguise them with scenic materials. But obviously the soldering of the wires will still need to be done.
You will however find that not every point will require all three wires, in many cases you will find that you already have a wire soldered to the section of rail and you can just branch off that wire. Also if you have a series of points the
Brian,
Thank you - this is a very helpful reply and gives options that (in my inexperience) I would not have thought off.
It has taken me 10 years to get to the stage that I am with the layout (I have this day job thing that interferes with what I really want to do !) so I don't want start again. I did not have the common sense to listen to what I was told about bonding the points when I started the layout so now its time to pay the price !
I think it will be possible to disguise all wires easily and also some surface mounted point motors will definitley fit in various buildings that can be adapted.
Yes I think I will only bond those points that have become problems.
Would Maplins have the sort of microswitch that I need ?
Thanks again for your help
Bob
Bob,
I have not used the Maplin micro switches myself, the ones I have are probably some 40+ years old!
They will need to be SPDT switches and lightly sprung. Others on here may be able to give more advice on the suitability of the Maplin switches.
I have however found that Maplin is no where near as good as it used to be when it comes to electronic components. There was I time when the firm was based locally to me (my father knew the founders) and the supply of electronic components was their main business. To-day this is only a sideline, their main business is supplying ready made consumer electronics. Their component prices used to be very competitive but they are now over-priced compared to other on-line suppliers. The last switches I purchased were via an e-bay business seller and were about a quarter the price of Maplins.
However I do have one micro switch that looks just like the Maplin one with the small metal leaver fitted. This is set in a slight hollow so it is below rail height and acts directly on the point sole bar.
I did the first drawings for the layout that I am still doing the scenery for in 1989 and the majority of the work on the layout was actually done by the late Jack Carter who passed away in 2002, so I know all about long build times!
Brian Meldon
Would it be possible for someone to put a diagram on here to show exactly what wires are required and where they have to go please?
I hope that this will help:
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wymann.info%2FShuntingPuzzles%2FBazeley%2FGraphics%2FPecoPointWiring.jpg&hash=1a1f96704eabe6bb63b19af6434938914f3a4592)
The feed wire from the centre of the switch can be on any rail connected to the V of the point.
This is the originating web page that you also my find usefull:
http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/Bazeley/LB-Construction.html
Brian Meldon
A great help thanks Brian.
All my points are fitted with peco point motors under the baseboard so I can't use the switch to change the points as in the diagram - could I use a separate switch?
Peco point motors can be fitted with their own switches ... at a price.
If the motors have the extended pins a Peco PL-13 accessory switch can be fitted to the motor, these are about
These next few photos show some point switch installations I have in use:
First this is a Peco accessory switch fitted to a point motor:
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi663.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu358%2FM-e-l-l-o-w%2FWestdorf%2FPecopointmotor.jpg%3Ft%3D1289641052&hash=7d6345cdb85a42adee2249cae35e77e7ca93212e)
Next is the most basic of toggle switch point operations. This point is not visible from the front of the layout.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi663.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu358%2FM-e-l-l-o-w%2FMeanderbahn%2FMeanderbahnCutoffPoint.jpg%3Ft%3D1289641108&hash=8167f5d6e4abaa46de8cdd875e58fb3ba89bc8ee)
Next a two way micro switch as installed with an extension to the switch bar acting directly on the point tie bar. As in the photo above this is on an old 9
This is all really useful stuff and thanks for taking the time to post it. I will try this on my layout as soon as I get the mini-soldering iron that I hope Father Christmas is bringing for me.
As it seems a lot of people, including myself, have problems with 009 Peco Points, could someone send an article to the 009 journal on the best way to fix these points? "i.e. fixing points to the baseboard"
Hi Gorwin
There is now no need for any such article as Peco updated the 12
I've recently been working on my ancient Peco points and the only advice I can really offer is firstly to ensure you have everything scrupulously clean, secondly to use a good flux, and thirdly to apply the minimum amount of heat necessary to make a good joint (too much heat and you run the risk of distorting the track fixings). A successful job however, is well worth the effort and really does reduce the 'frustration factor'. I use small toggle dpst switches (sometimes with centre-off so both roads of a siding can be isolated) mounted on the side of the layout by drilling a 6mm hole (to take the switch) in a piece of brass strip which is then bent into an angle and screwed into the timber support.
Thank you Brian, I find I am a bit confused regards all this, will have to study it more, the grey matter is slow taking it in. I did hear once at one of the exhibitions that the way you fasten the points to the baseboard made all the difference, but did not remember the instructions when making my two layouts, trouble with points is my frustration at the present time, will see if I can work out your excellent advice.
Quote from: gorwin on October 11, 2011, 12:01
Thank you Brian, I find I am a bit confused regards all this, will have to study it more, the grey matter is slow taking it in. I did hear once at one of the exhibitions that the way you fasten the points to the baseboard made all the difference, but did not remember the instructions when making my two layouts, trouble with points is my frustration at the present time, will see if I can work out your excellent advice.
Perhaps I miss understood you.
All our trackbed is made from
My method of fixing the track down is different, but I can confirm that 6 mm plywood makes a good strong (and more importantly, stiff) and light baseboard. Yes it can "drum" but this can be damped out if neccessary. Iain Rice recommends spray can builders foam sprayed into the cavity underneath.
Quote from: GraemeD on October 12, 2011, 13:04
My method of fixing the track down is different, but I can confirm that 6 mm plywood makes a good strong (and more importantly, stiff) and light baseboard. Yes it can "drum" but this can be damped out if neccessary. Iain Rice recommends spray can builders foam sprayed into the cavity underneath.
May I pursue this a little further? My main baseboard is made from Sundeala (or is it MDF?). Would it be possible to lay the plywood onto that surface or does this belong the book of 009 heresy? Also could you explain in a little more detail what is meant by the cavity underneath?
Much obliged in advance.
I don't really see the point in laying ply on top of the MDF, you'll just be adding weight to it. The running qualities or sound transmission into the baseboard can't be that different and therefore you're just creating extra work.
Re. sound deadening I've taken a different approach to track laying. All my baseboards have a 12mm ply running surface due to it being an exhibition layout which has to be lifted out of a loft through a hatch every time it is to be transported. Some may say it's overkill, but i'd rather over-engineer than under.
On top of the ply I've glued some laminate floor underlay foam, this is about
Quote from: Rhobat Bryn on October 12, 2011, 16:43My main baseboard is made from Sundeala (or is it MDF?).
I may be wrong here, as we don't get Sundalea in Australia, but I believe there's a big difference between Sundalea and MDF. Sundalea is made from compressed paper, while MDF (Medium Density Fibreboard) is very heavy, and made from wood. MDF is very smooth in appearance, on both sides, and very hard. Very difficult to insert a track pin without pre-drilling. Sundalea is light in weight, also sold as a pin board, with pins able to pushed in by hand.
I have always thought of Sundela as essentially Low Density Fiberboard in comarison to MDF, John and I suspect that 'pinboard' is much the same as Sundela.
It is even harder to get track pins into Ply, Rhobat, so adding a layer on top of the MDF (or Sundela) will just make life more dificult for yourself and needlessly add weight as Tom suggets.
Time for a science (ish) bit!
If one looks at the innards of a piano beneth (or behind if its an upright) the strings is a large flat bit of wood known as the sound board that essentially amplifies the vibrations from the strings. One of the usual methods of basebord construction is a (soft)wood frame with a flat sheet (MDF or Sundela) fixed on top to produce a flat surface, and this board acts much the same as the sound board in a piano and amplifies the sounds of the stock, especially noisy motors and gear trains, running on the rails on the top. 'Open frame' basebords (essentially a wooden structure with flat sections only under the tracks with the scenery being self supporting chicken wire) are less prone to this effect but can still suffer from it.
To reduce the noise amplification one needs to add some dampening (much like a car's shock absorbers dampen the vibrations from the road). This can be done by having a 'softer' material between the track and basebord top - the usual one being cork tiles though sheet foam can be used. Anothger way is to absorb the sound into something below the basebord. One could use builders foam sprayed on, though this could make accessing wires, point motors, etc. dificult unless some thought is put in first - personally I would use something like the pink (or blue) polystyrene insulation foam sold by B&Q and others would be better as this can be cut to shape to fit in. As an aside, such materials have been used to construct the basebord from - Pempoule (spelling?) is one example that comes to mind - and may be worth looking into (a google search is probably a good start).
Sorry this has gone a little off the"Problems with Peco 009 points" topic and more into basebord construction but hopefully it answers some questions.
Perhaps some photos may help......
These are photos of the late Jack Carter
I have just spoken with Peco technical and while they have changed the blade design, they have not changed the frog. They also seem to be unaware that there are problems.
This is what CG looks like at present after the total removal of Peco 12" crazy points. These remained the main reliability issue.
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.009.cd2.com%2Fimages68%2F31.jpg&hash=90c007958b728e5d2d5d3a3ef4240a70323d12d8)
John
As well as eliminating the 12
YOU CAN SAFELY BET ON ALL OF THOSE THINGS, BRIAN!
All of this makes me quite depressed as it means I have been blaming myself all this time for being a bad modeler when the problem, at least in part is because I have been using a product with an inherent design flaw. I wonder how many people have just given up and found another hobby?
The Sundeala dogma was launched early post war when it was difficult to obtain materials. It has somehow carried on despite being rubbish. It is a bit like the myth that carrots help you see in the dark. This was a mis-information to try to hide night radar interception of German bombers.
The only people who believed it was post war British mums!
I must be missing something. How did the use of Sundeala help to hide night radar interceptions of German bombers?
What I said was that just as someone started a myth about carrots for night vision, which is still believed today, someone started a myth that Sundeala was good for model railways and folks are still trying to use it today.
Quote from: pilotfriend on October 28, 2011, 04:35
What I said was that just as someone started a myth about carrots for night vision, which is still believed today, someone started a myth that Sundeala was good for model railways and folks are still trying to use it today.
Ah I see. My apologies for being slow on the uptake. The version I heard was that the myth about carrots was to encourage the eating of vegetables by children during the war, mothers being the main vehicle for conveying this information. I hadn't heard the reference to night radar interception of German bombers; that's a new one on me.
As to the use of Sundeala, you clearly have very strong views on this. Did you use Sundeala in the past and found it wanting or are your views based on observation of others' use of it?
Did you use Sundeala in the past and found it wanting or are your views based on observation of others' use of it?
Oh yeh!
Quote from: pilotfriend on October 28, 2011, 09:46
Did you use Sundeala in the past and found it wanting or are your views based on observation of others' use of it?
Oh yeh!
It was a genuine enquiry. I'm sorry that my question appears to have angered you. I won't trouble you any further.
I think John, like most of us, has tried it in the past and found it wanting, hence his earlier posts comparing the stuff to other things which don't work... There are far better materials for baseboard tops, you're better off using them! My personal favourite is 6mm ply.
Quote from: Hobby on October 28, 2011, 10:18
I think John, like most of us, has tried it in the past and found it wanting, hence his earlier posts comparing the stuff to other things which don't work... There are far better materials for baseboard tops, you're better off using them! My personal favourite is 6mm ply.
Thank you for that insight. As I already have Sundeala, I shall persevere with it and will no doubt encounter the deficiencies that you and others have come across in the past. If it's not too much to ask, I would be grateful if you could you tell me a little of your own experience with it and what you found to be the main deficiencies of this material compared with the 6mm ply that you recommend.
"It was a genuine enquiry. I'm sorry that my question appears to have angered you. I won't trouble you any further."
You did not anger me one bit. It was a light hearted way of saying that I have tried it and seen the results of others. Again, the material destabilises and warps over time. This can be even quicker if dilute PVA is used for ballasting and scenery.
Rhobat, if I was cross, it would be very noticable.. ;D
best
JdF
So I now have a layout made of bendy material supporting track with points that dont work -- no wonder I have more delay's than network rail!
Quote from: pilotfriend on October 28, 2011, 12:23
You did not anger me one bit. It was a light hearted way of saying that I have tried it and seen the results of others. Again, the material destabilises and warps over time. This can be even quicker if dilute PVA is used for ballasting and scenery.
Rhobat, if I was cross, it would be very noticable.. ;D
best
JdF
My apologies for the misinterpretation and thank you for explaining the reasons behind your views.
In answer to your question, R, the answer is the same as John's - warping!
Quote from: Hobby on October 29, 2011, 09:30
In answer to your question, R, the answer is the same as John's - warping!
Thanks for the observation. I haven't got to the stage yet where I have laid the track permanently as I'm still working out what I want the layout to do. However, in the light of your and John's comments, I am minded to have the Sundeala removed and have 6mm plywood fitted when the time comes to lay the final formation.
I am minded to have the Sundeala removed and have 6mm plywood :) :) :) :)
Yeh, yeh, yeh...
http://www.009.cd2.com/buildingcg.htm
;D ;D ;D
Sundeala might be good if you are modelling a scenic railway
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heritageandhistory.com%2Fcontents1a%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F08%2Fmargate-scenic-railway_engher.jpg&hash=e800137a104596c504835c401ebe51aa9dd90c4f)
That is the vertical equivalent of a reverse curve !!! :o
Must have been designed to drive Brian Meldon mad! ;D ;D ;D