Does anyone know if it's possible to use the Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrog with a SEEP PM1 point motor that is attached to a Peco SL-491 / 492 electrofrog point?
Will it cause problems?
Should I just rely on the point blades to make the connection?
Andy
It is just my opinion, but I would not use the autofrog or the pointblades.
I would just use the mechanical frog polarity switch that operates with the PM1 point motor.
The problem is the throw of the point is quite small so the mounting position of the point motor is critical to making the switch work with the point.
If you use a nice solid trackbed, 1/4 (6mm) plywood for example, and slightly extend the mounting holes in the point motor some adjustment is posiable and once adjusted you can just tighten the fixing screws. ('Soft' track bed materials are not so good for mounting point motors.)
Brian Meldon
I know it is a minority view, but I just rely on the point blades to make connection. Slightly tweeking of the ends of the point blends (I do mean slight) is sometimes necessary to get good contact. Thereafter keeping the area clean of dirt is important and I sometimes run a graphite pencil along the contact area for good measure (though I have read of problems with doing this with DCC).
Please note all my experieince is with DC.
Julian
Are you DC or DCC, Andy?
Quote from: hughn on February 06, 2021, 19:43
Are you DC or DCC, Andy?
If DC then No. Different technologies. Use the Seep to switch the frog.
If DCC then yes BUT you don't really need it, use the Seep to switch the frog.
I'm guessing but as you asked I get the feeling that you may think that the DCC80 should some how be wired to the switch on the Seep. Its not.
Quote from: andy1878 on February 07, 2021, 00:30
Quote from: hughn on February 06, 2021, 19:43
Are you DC or DCC, Andy?
If DC then No. Different technologies. Use the Seep to switch the frog.
If DCC then yes BUT you don't really need it, use the Seep to switch the frog.
I'm guessing but as you asked I get the feeling that you may think that the DCC80 should some how be wired to the switch on the Seep. Its not.
(too many Andys?)
I was asking the OP but yes - you answered the question :)
...and I can only answer questions on DC!
Quote from: hughn on February 06, 2021, 19:43
Are you DC or DCC, Andy?
It is a DCC layout.
Andy
Quote from: B.Meldon on February 06, 2021, 12:13
It is just my opinion, but I would not use the autofrog or the pointblades.
I would just use the mechanical frog polarity switch that operates with the PM1 point motor.
The problem is the throw of the point is quite small so the mounting position of the point motor is critical to making the switch work with the point.
If you use a nice solid trackbed, 1/4 (6mm) plywood for example, and slightly extend the mounting holes in the point motor some adjustment is posiable and once adjusted you can just tighten the fixing screws. ('Soft' track bed materials are not so good for mounting point motors.)
Brian Meldon
Hi Brian and everyone else,
Thanks for your replies.
The story so far;
After I had initially laid all the track and wired everything up, I switched it on for the first time and the NCE Powercab that I'm using started flashing straightaway indicating there was a short somewhere.
I checked all the wiring which appeared to be correct. I was advised to use the DCC80 Autofrog as this would definitely cure the problem, so I duly bought some but they are not fitted yet.
I then had a reply from a nice man at Peco who told me that the short was due to my using the SEEP PM1 point motor. He said that because they use a frog polarity switch, this was conflicting with the point blades of the electrofrog points and causing the short. He said I needed to disconnect (cut) the wire going from terminal "F" of the SEEP PM1 to the frog. I did this and it cured the short and I was able to get locos to work. He also said that the frog wire from the PM1 was intended for use with insulfrog points only.
He also told me not to use the DCC80 Autofrog, so they remain unused at present.
My locos will now go around my layout but at slow speeds they will stall on some of the electrofrog points, I'm just relying on the point blades now.
The locos I have are two Bachmann Baldwins and a Minitrains 0-4-0 Island Creek Coal Co loco.
This is the first layout I've built for a good number of years, and the first DCC one. I have dropper wires to every piece of track and all the points have droppers at the toe end. I've used insulated rail joiners at the "V" of each frog and also in the passing loops. It's laid on 6mm plywood.
I'm really at a loss to know what to do next to try and get the layout to work as it should.
Any other advice (preferably in words of one syllable) will be greatly appreciated.
Best Wishes
Andy
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 11, 2021, 12:20
He also told me not to use the DCC80 Autofrog, so they remain unused at present.
Hi Andy, good to hear the Peco were helpful, they are a pretty good company to deal with.
Did he say why he didn't like the Autofrog? Was it something about that specific type or just the whole idea?
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on February 11, 2021, 12:41
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 11, 2021, 12:20
He also told me not to use the DCC80 Autofrog, so they remain unused at present.
Hi Andy, good to hear the Peco were helpful, they are a pretty good company to deal with.
Did he say why he didn't like the Autofrog? Was it something about that specific type or just the whole idea?
Stephen,
He said the Autofrogs were just not needed with 009 electrofrog points in the same way that the frog wire from the PM1 is not needed. Apparently the 009 electrofrog points are made differently from the 00 gauge ones. Adding the frog wire or an Autofrog will produce a short. It is fine to use them on 00 gauge.
Best Wishes
Andy
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 11, 2021, 13:12
He said the Autofrogs were just not needed with 009 electrofrog points in the same way that the frog wire from the PM1 is not needed. Apparently the 009 electrofrog points are made differently from the 00 gauge ones. Adding the frog wire or an Autofrog will produce a short. It is fine to use them on 00 gauge.
Hi, I don't have 00 ones here t compare against, although I thought that they had gone over to "Unifrog" now, just to complicate matters :D
I suspect that he is assuming that the blade contacts will be good enough to make contact, but its not something I rely one. Yo already know that your controller is happy to deal with shorts so it might be worth trying the switch and autofrog again.
Just a thought, you do have insulated joiners connecting your frog don't you?
Stephen
I suspect that he is assuming that the blade contacts will be good enough to make contact, but its not something I rely one. Yo already know that your controller is happy to deal with shorts so it might be worth trying the switch and autofrog again.
Just a thought, you do have insulated joiners connecting your frog don't you?
Stephen
[/quote]
Hi Stephen,
The man said that the use of a point motor would be enough to ensure that the blades made sufficient contact (as long as they are kept clean). The use of anything else on an electrofrog point would only lead to problems.
I have insulated rail joiners on the "V" of the frog on all the points.
Best Wishes
Andy
Quote from: B.Meldon on February 06, 2021, 12:13
It is just my opinion, but I would not use the autofrog or the pointblades.
I would just use the mechanical frog polarity switch that operates with the PM1 point motor.
The problem is the throw of the point is quite small so the mounting position of the point motor is critical to making the switch work with the point.
If you use a nice solid trackbed, 1/4 (6mm) plywood for example, and slightly extend the mounting holes in the point motor some adjustment is posiable and once adjusted you can just tighten the fixing screws. ('Soft' track bed materials are not so good for mounting point motors.)
Brian Meldon
That rings a bell. I remember having lots of bother setting these up, from memory (vague) the pitch of the seep terminals is not optimum to the throw required and it was all too easy to get stopped mid point (terrible pun) thus causing a short. (both rails connected to the frog, thus together, at the same time.) This was one of the reasons I stopped using them.
FWIW I too never rely on the point blade contact and don't like the autofrog method.
In another thread Hugh says
"I have SEEPs under my layout - I have had no issues with them. I use a separate system to ensure power goes to the frogs. (Probably because of that, it means there is more latitude in positioning the motors under the baseboard).."
Could Hugh possibly elaborate please..
Quote from: andy1878 on February 11, 2021, 16:00
FWIW I too never rely on the point blade contact and don't like the autofrog method.
Same here, keeping them spotless is very fiddly on something so small and the contact area is tiny. I have been experimenting with microswitches, but have just started looking at how I could make something simple and electronic that isolated the frog all the time the servo was moving and only reconnected it a few seconds later.
So far my solutions have worked, but have been too unwieldy and expensive, but I should be getting a lull soon in work so plan to spend some time then.
Quote from: andy1878 on February 11, 2021, 16:11
In another thread Hugh says
"I have SEEPs under my layout - I have had no issues with them. I use a separate system to ensure power goes to the frogs. (Probably because of that, it means there is more latitude in positioning the motors under the baseboard).."
Could Hugh possibly elaborate please..
I would like to know what Hugh uses too, please.
Best Wishes
Andy
Oh dear - it would require a new thread.
Plus it has evolved - and my newer method will be applied to my new "test track"
I do not know if it would work for DCC, as I am still in the dark ages of DC
let me get my thoughts together....
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 11, 2021, 12:20
...................I then had a reply from a nice man at Peco who told me that the short was due to my using the SEEP PM1 point motor. He said that because they use a frog polarity switch, this was conflicting with the point blades of the electrofrog points and causing the short. He said I needed to disconnect (cut) the wire going from terminal "F" of the SEEP PM1 to the frog. I did this and it cured the short and I was able to get locos to work. He also said that the frog wire from the PM1 was intended for use with insulfrog points only.
Best Wishes
Andy
What nonsense!
There are countless modellers that use the SEEP PM1's internal switch on electrofrog points as a frog polarity switch.
My guess is either you wired the D and E contacts on the motor to the wrong tracks (an easy error) or the point motor is not adjusted properly so that the internal switch is not moving correctly with the point blades.
Quote from: B.Meldon on February 12, 2021, 11:05
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 11, 2021, 12:20
...................I then had a reply from a nice man at Peco who told me that the short was due to my using the SEEP PM1 point motor. He said that because they use a frog polarity switch, this was conflicting with the point blades of the electrofrog points and causing the short. He said I needed to disconnect (cut) the wire going from terminal "F" of the SEEP PM1 to the frog. I did this and it cured the short and I was able to get locos to work. He also said that the frog wire from the PM1 was intended for use with insulfrog points only.
Best Wishes
Andy
What nonsense!
There are countless modellers that use the SEEP PM1's internal switch on electrofrog points as a frog polarity switch.
My guess is either you wired the D and E contacts on the motor to the wrong tracks (an easy error) or the point motor is not adjusted properly so that the internal switch is not moving correctly with the point blades.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for your reply. I have used black and red wires for the D and E contacts and double checked them as I went along and again when I connected them to the track, so I know they are correct.
I don't have anywhere near the experience that you have in model railways and I have no wish to upset you in any way, in fact I am very grateful for your input and advice.
The man at Peco said that 009 points are made differently from 00 gauge ones and therefore did not need the wire from the PM1 to the frog of the point. It does seem strange that when I disconnected the wire on each of the points, the short disappeared. I used a jig to mount the point motors and to the best of my ability, they are centred correctly. However because of the small distance that the blades have to travel on a 009 point (compared to 00 gauge) the internal switch may not be moving far enough.
If this problem was to occur on a layout of yours, what would you do to put it right? Should I replace the PM1 point motors with a different make?
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Best Wishes
Andy
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 12, 2021, 12:08
If this problem was to occur on a layout of yours, what would you do to put it right? Should I replace the PM1 point motors with a different make?
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Best Wishes
Andy
Hi Andy
For a start on a DCC layout every frog needs to be isolated using isolating fishplates on both the frog rails, but I would guess that you have done this already.
You also need to test the frog polarity switch is working as it should before you wire it up to the frog, using a meter. Switching the point using the motor, not by hand as you do this test. (You can do this test after the switch is wired up to the frog and rails by placing a thin bit of paper between the blade and the fixed rail.)
As I mentioned in a post above all my point motors are solidly mounted on a 1/4 (6mm) plywood trackbed.
I always mount the point motors that have frog polarity switches so they can be adjusted relative to the point.
With the SEEP ones this will require elongating the mounting holes.
You will need to adjust the location of the point motor relative to the point until the switch works in both directions as it should and then tighten it in position. This will probably not be the same on every point and may not always be central so a jig will be useless in this regard. Adjustment by hand is almost always necessary to ensure the switch is working as it should.
It is not a SEEP motor but to get the idea here is a photo showing a Peco point motor with a peco accessory switch mounted so it can be adjusted on my layout under test using a meter:
Quote from: B.Meldon on February 12, 2021, 13:50
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 12, 2021, 12:08
If this problem was to occur on a layout of yours, what would you do to put it right? Should I replace the PM1 point motors with a different make?
Hi Andy
For a start on a DCC layout every frog needs to be isolated using isolating fishplates on both the frog rails, but I would guess that you have done this already.
You also need to test the frog polarity switch is working as it should before you wire it up to the frog, using a meter. Switching the point using the motor, not by hand as you do this test. (You can do this test after the switch is wired up to the frog and rails by placing a thin bit of paper between the blade and the fixed rail.)
As I mentioned in a post above all my point motors are solidly mounted on a 1/4 (6mm) plywood trackbed.
I always mount the point motors that have frog polarity switches so they can be adjusted relative to the point.
With the SEEP ones this will require elongating the mounting holes.
You will need to adjust the location of the point motor relative to the point until the switch works in both directions as it should and then tighten it in position. This will probably not be the same on every point and may not always be central so a jig will be useless in this regard. Adjustment by hand is almost always necessary to ensure the switch is working as it should.
It is not a SEEP motor but to get the idea here is a photo showing a Peco point motor with a peco accessory switch mounted so it can be adjusted on my layout under test using a meter:
Hi Brian,
Thanks once again for taking the trouble to help me out.
I already have isolating rail joiners on both of the rails at the "V" of the frog.
I assume that is a multi meter in your photo, I haven't got one and never used one either. I found this one at Screwfix, would it be suitable to test the switch? https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-mas830b-digital-multimeter-600v/75337
What do I need to set the meter to? Where should it be connected? What should the display show?
How do I know if the answer it gives is correct? Sorry for all the questions, but I don't know how to use the meter. I steer well clear of any electrical wiring and leave it to professionals, but as there is only a few volts involved in model railway wiring, I thought I'd have a go myself. I'm beginning to have second thoughts as I didn't realise there was so much that could go wrong.
Best Wishes
Andy
Quote from: Andy Lock on February 12, 2021, 14:44
Hi Brian,
Thanks once again for taking the trouble to help me out.
I already have isolating rail joiners on both of the rails at the "V" of the frog.
I assume that is a multi meter in your photo, I haven't got one and never used one either. I found this one at Screwfix, would it be suitable to test the switch? https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-mas830b-digital-multimeter-600v/75337
What do I need to set the meter to? Where should it be connected? What should the display show?
How do I know if the answer it gives is correct? Sorry for all the questions, but I don't know how to use the meter. I steer well clear of any electrical wiring and leave it to professionals, but as there is only a few volts involved in model railway wiring, I thought I'd have a go myself. I'm beginning to have second thoughts as I didn't realise there was so much that could go wrong.
Best Wishes
Andy
My meter in the photo was about £5 around 15 years ago and almost identical ones are still on sale via e-bay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402412884525
It is usualy the leads that fail with time after a few years use not the meter and the leads can be replaced for under £3, or you can just get another meter with leads! They use a PP3 9v battery that costs £1 from poundland.
As can be seen in my photo it is set on resistance on the 2000k ohms scale. The meter should go to 000 when the point is switched one way and - when switched the other.
For a seep point motor you need to test between the F and D in one direction and then F and E in the other direction.
My meter in the photo was about £5 around 15 years ago and almost identical ones are still on sale via e-bay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402412884525
It is usualy the leads that fail with time after a few years use not the meter and the leads can be replaced for under £3, or you can just get another meter with leads! They use a PP3 9v battery that costs £1 from poundland.
As can be seen in my photo it is set on resistance on the 2000k ohms scale. The meter should go to 000 when the point is switched one way and - when switched the other.
For a seep point motor you need to test between the F and D in one direction and then F and E in the other direction.
[/quote
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the information, I have purchased a multimeter so I'll see what that reveals when it arrives.
Best Wishes
Andy