The review of the new 7mm NGA's handbook 'Going Narrow Gauge' in the latest 009 News refers to 'that elusive narrow gauge 'atmosphere'" which experienced n-g modellers try to explain in the handbook.
It got me wondering whether - and to what extent - it might be possible to define this atmosphere? - in which case it would become slightly less elusive! This could be especially helpful to newcomers to 009 modelling as well at 7mm-ers.
Of course, all of us in the Society recognise it pretty instantly. One might object that it varies from railway to railway, but I suggest that it applies much the same to a Welsh slate line and an Indian hill railway, to take two random examples. That's not to say that they are the same, of course, but they do share certain instantly recognisable characteristics.
For the purposes of this thread I am thinking chiefly of visual aspects rather than operating practices and so on.
I imagine our own forthcoming Handbook will have a chapter on 'Getting Started' or something similar so suggestions offered here might help in writing that chapter. Could we compile a list of say, the Top Ten features? (maybe even a members' poll if there are more than ten suggestions).
To kick things off, here is my No.1: The rails are closer together than normal.
Now we've got that out of the way, over to you.
David.
2. sleeper spacing and length are random in some railways.
Robin.
Lack of signalling? Or rudimentary...
Often just central buffers.
Often little or no ballast.
I think narrow gauge atmosphere is a misnomer - some railways had that bucolic air of yesteryear but their rails were at the Stephenson gauge - some of the Colonel Stephens lines, the Bishops Castle, the Golden Valley seem to have that elusive atmosphere more than others with their rails closer together.
I'm with Engerth on this, as he says many lines that show what some modellers call "Narrow Gauge Atmosphere" are actually standard gauge and then some modellers give them "honorary" NG status, which, with respect, is rubbish as you could equally argue the other way round!
If you ask many British NG modellers you will get their definition of NG as run down, no signals, simple, etc., but, for me, what sets NG apart from the rest is its sheer variety and individuality. The modern stuff I model, Czech, Hungarian and Austrian has as much atmosphere as the old run down British lines but it's different. Although they are modern and often use new stock, it doesn't look like SG or behave like SG, it has a charm of it's own. It can be impressive, long trains on the Ziller and the use of transporter bogies on the JHMD to carry SG wagons, it can be weird, the rebuilt railcars on the JHMD with their round windows! But each one is individual, even where there was some standardisation each line manages to have it's own atmosphere and is different to the others.
That's to me what NG is all about.
Low or no platforms - just gravel close to ground level......
Very much a variation on what has been said before: keeping the infrastructure in line with the supposed line traffic and income. Also the state of repair and lineside growth, particularly in respect to the date of operation depicted.
Quote from: Hobby on October 27, 2020, 08:47The modern stuff I model, Czech, Hungarian and Austrian has as much atmosphere as the old run down British lines but it's different. Although they are modern and often use new stock, it doesn't look like SG or behave like SG, it has a charm of it's own...That's to me what NG is all about.
Ah -"a charm of its own". Is charm the same as atmosphere? - I'm guessing so, or closely enough.
I'm intrigued by your comments, as they make it clear that for some (and I'm certainly not making any value judgments!) the characteristics which might be thought essential to n-g atmosphere are not for others. But the individuality you speak about can apply to 'modern image' lines as well as to delapidated ones, be they narrow gauge or Col. Stephens s-g ones.
I was just beginning to wonder if steam traction - some steam, if not exclusively so - was part of the essential atmosphere we're trying to define, but it seems it's not after all.
Thanks for the other comments and suggestions so far.
David.
Perhaps it's one and the same. I speak strictly for myself... There is nothing like the smell of steam. A loud chuff, smoke, the sound of a whistle and with a sudden jolt we are off, the carriages bounce around, the seat is hard there is no glass in the window, now and then smoke fills the carriage but our journey has begun. What lies at the end of our journey who knows but we are rolling at a high speed of 25mph. Perhaps what I have written is romantic nostalgia but it's simple. Its my minds eye.
Yes these little railways were once built to a good standard and with fine rolling stock, but I was not there. I only see what is now, and its run down. ( There are exceptions. )
Robin.
Sharp curves.
Metal sleepers/ties.
Temporary bridges.
Mixed rail. (Light and heavy)
Robin.
I found the Austrian 2190 class diesel to have a fascination, likewise the 2095 class. Of course, I like steam and the 399 class on the Waldviertelbahn were wonderful to see and hear.
Again I agree with Engerth (no, we are not the same person!!), although I was brought up with steam (the last British steam shed, Lostock Hall in the late 60s) and love the smell, powerful diesels also work for me, I suppose that because I was spotting in the change over era and wasn't old enough to be bias in favour of one or the other I just ended up appreciating both.
David, based on what I've seen of 7mm NG modelling in the UK I expect that the vast majority of those "experienced" modellers mentioned in the OP will concentrate mainly on the "typical" British run down Col Stephens type of line or industrial 2ft gauge and maybe the odd US logging layout, I may be doing them an injustice but I'd be surprised if it isn't mainly that. If we are to do something similar I feel it's important that we recognise the wide range of diversity in our Society which nicely mirrors the wide range of NG the world over. We have members who model the Garretts of Africa, Australian sugar, Cuban and American NG, even Japanese 2ft 6ins, and, of course, the incredible variety of NG in Europe from the efficient Swiss (surely the most commonly seen "foreign NG" in the UK) to the logging lines which still exist in Eastern Europe and Russia. NG isn't just about run down steam locos or small industrial diesels, it's about infinite variety, please let's spread the word that it goes way beyond our small island!!
I'd agree with everything you say, Blair (though I'm not as familiar with the 7mm scene as you are). As for 009, I'm sure no-one would want to disagree with your global view of narrow gauge railways, and I think no-one here is suggesting an exclusively UK-centric view. If you look at the various comments and suggestions which have been made I think they would almost all apply to n-g lines anywhere in the world. Narrow gauge 'atmosphere', whatever exactly that is, does seem pretty universal.
David.
[into Southern Q1s, Cl 50 diesels, Southern Electric (not the utility) and LUL as well as n-g!]
Reading through the comments already made in this thread it would appear that "narrow gauge atmosphere" is really hard to define. At first I thought that the Talyllyn Railway is the typical line with "narrow gauge atmosphere", delightful little locos with short trains weaving their way through the countryside and stopping at stations that in some cases are little more then a clearing in the forest with a cinder covered platforms barely at rail height and with a small timber built platform shelter.
But then again, the Welsh Highland Railway has "narrow gauge atmosphere", and no one is ever going to call an NG/G16 Beyer-Garratt a "little loco" and at 10 bogie coaches the WHR trains are certainly not short.
For me it is the impression that the line was built and maintained by some very ingenious people working with a minimal budget. No unnecessary frills or luxuries, just enough to get the job done.
Edit: Maybe that should read "British Narrow Gauge... "
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on October 29, 2020, 01:20
For me it is the impression that the line was built and maintained by some very ingenious people working with a minimal budget. No unnecessary frills or luxuries, just enough to get the job done.
I think that's one of the best answers so far.
I'd agree that is what many British NG enthusiasts believe, and it's seen in comments I've seen on forums and in magazines where networks such as the Cape Gauge railways and Swiss Metre gauge are called standard gauge in miniature (as if true narrow gauge can't be run efficiently!) and the only true narrow gauge is a line run on a minimum budget and run into the ground.
Which is exactly why I was trying to persuade people that isn't the case! It seems a very British attitude to narrow gauge, probably because that's how our narrow gauge lines were, but, as such, it's also a very insular view of narrow gauge and one I'd hope the Society's publication wold not perpetuate.
Looks like I'm flogging a dead horse, though, as I seem to be the only one who doesn't want my model railway to be run down and decrepit!
(David, my views on O scale narrow gauge modelling is based on the layouts I see at exhibitions which would appear in the main to be either small British run down NG (see Tallylyn reference in a previous post!) using cheap Hornby 0-4-0 chassis, Industrial narrow gauge or US Logging lines - I could be doing them a major dis-service in which case I apologise, but that's the impression I get - I think one reason we see much more foreign HO narrow gauge is because it is available RTR, something that hasn't been the case in 0 scale, except for the short lived and crude Magic Train and Minex ranges).
Quote from: Hobby on October 29, 2020, 08:57
Looks like I'm flogging a dead horse, though, as I seem to be the only one who doesn't want my model railway to be run down and decrepit!
You're not alone. My model railway is neither run down or decrepit.
There are probably as many 'atmospheres' as there are narrow gauge railways (quite a few around the world!), and I suspect that the atmosphere of any particular line changed with time - as a case in point I suspect the 'atmosphere' of the Tallylyn was different if one were to compare the 1950s to the current preserved line.
It might be possible to define this 'atmosphere', but I suspect that once we get past the very definition of narrow gauge - that the rails are closer than 4' 8 1/2" or 1435mm - it's unlikely more than one person will agree on whatever definition anyone else comes up with.
I've often said that when it comes to narrow gauge modelers we tend to be "Narrow gauge, not narrow minded", so perhaps we should confine ourselves to agreeing that narrow gauge railways are just "not standard", and the slick Swiss meter gauge is atmospheric, and the Tralee & Dingle running monthly cattle trains with broken-down truck and barely running locomotives is also atmospheric, and the only definite obvious difference is about 3 inches?.
(Equally I thought the only Atmospheric railway in the UK was 7' gauge... ::)
Quote from: JulienW on October 29, 2020, 09:53I've often said that when it comes to narrow gauge modelers we tend to be "Narrow gauge, not narrow minded", so perhaps we should confine ourselves to agreeing that narrow gauge railways are just "not standard", and the slick Swiss meter gauge is atmospheric, and the Tralee & Dingle running monthly cattle trains with broken-down truck and barely running locomotives is also atmospheric, and the only definite obvious difference is about 3 inches?.
Well said, young sir... It begs the question, though, why do we have to try to define NG atmosphere, it would be like herding cats! Perhaps a few comments from people why they model what they do but not trying to nail down something so slippery (perhaps not cats, then!)...
Has anyone seen the 7mmNG article, I would love to see what they've said (and whether it backs my suspicions!) but I'm not joining them simply for that!!
Quote from: Hobby on October 29, 2020, 08:57
Looks like I'm flogging a dead horse, though, as I seem to be the only one who doesn't want my model railway to be run down and decrepit!
I have changed my comment to say "British Narrow Gauge.."
It begs the question, though, why do we have to try to define NG atmosphere
This is the nub of it - once you define narrow gauge atmosphere anyone not conforming is beyond the pail. One thing narrow gauge enthusiasts are is non-conformist (obviously not in any relgious sense). We whave seen the different viewpoints and it is obvious that Cape Gauge or Indian metre gauge main lines bear little relationship with a Welsh slate line.
Quote from: Hobby on October 29, 2020, 11:06...why do we have to try to define NG atmosphere, it would be like herding cats!
No one is forcing you, Blair! If you recall my OP was only quoting the review in the latest
News where the reviewer said that Gordon Gravett et al were explaining 'how they capture that elusive narrow gauge 'atmosphere' '- so maybe we should just read the book to find their answer? :)
The key word is probably 'elusive' - herding cats, nailing jelly to the wall and other similar expressions may indeed apply here.
The key thing may just be that, whatever it is, we recognise it when we see it?
David.
We were asked whether we should do something similar for the upcoming Society Handbook, all I was doing was pointing out that the typical British view of what "NG Atmosphere" is very different to what other people may think, and I felt that we should not perpetuate the myth that there is only "one true version" of it and suggested that we should be trying to celebrate the wide variety of different atmospheres, not just one...
Unless you want to just change the title to "British Narrow Gauge Atmosphere"!
Since "atmosphere" is such an emotive term then approaching the topic from another angle might be worth consideration?
I think what might be implied by "narrow gauge atmosphere" is what differentiates it from "standard gauge atmosphere", or at least as most people experience railways. In this case it could be approached by looking at differences and similarities and the reasons for them, a sort of "form follows function" view. That could also encompass differences between different types of NG railway, eras and locations. It could also cover things like the history of a line which might give a different "atmosphere" whether if say it was built in its final form or evolved from a horse-drawn tramway.
Hmm, this is like the proverbial 'bar-of-soap-in-the-bath' methinks.
When at an exhibition, I'm drawn to some exhibits more than others - regardless of scale /gauge etc. This could well be "atmosphere". For me, its usually the way the railway interacts with the setting (scenery ?), mixed in with some sense of purpose for the line. How you actually encapsulate this in any definition is beyond me.
Perhaps for the Society's guide, it might point the newcomer to a list of possible titles, eg the 7mm "Going Narrow Gauge", Slim Gauge publications etc. I think we may be only able to point the way...
I'd suggest people reading some of the books on NG written in the 1950s and early 1960s by people who visited those lines are much better at painting the "old style" NG atmosphere than those more recent publications...
But then there's the different atmosphere of modern commercial NG and heritage (preserved) NG which are different again...
As you say, a bar of soap in a bath, impossible to categorise...