This isn't entirely unconnected with my topic on wheel/track compatibility which morphed into a discussion of hand built track. It's potentially of wider interest, hence a separate topic for visibility.
I was doing a Google search to see if anyone had been brave/foolhardy enough to attempt to convert a Setrack point to live frog. I stumbled across this product from a small supplier in Germany:
https://www.eichhorn-modellbau.de/en/component/mijoshop/product/445-elektrofrog-peco-crossing-setrak-13st5.html?Itemid=186
It's intended for N gauge Setrack points, but if I understand correctly, the only difference from 009 Setrack is the sleeper base. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that!) I have no idea how easy it is to fit or how good it is, but it's an interesting idea, so I thought it was worth drawing attention to it. If you click on the image on the page, you'll get a slightly bigger image of a converted point. Click again and you'll see the detail of the converted crossing.
At EUR 4.87, it's fairly expensive, particularly when you factor in postage.
Ian
That reminds me - I think I recall someone producing parts for tram track on a cottage industry basis using whitemetal castings. It may have been Tramalan, but I think they are no longer operating. OK that was not 009, but assuming whitemetal is up to the job, some enterprising person might be able to make their own castings for 009.
Edit: phrasing changed hopefully to clarify.
Hi Ian, I like fiddling around with track etc. I think i have a old N gauge Mini Trix turnout which i have no use for, i will see how easy it is to convert it to electrofrog, if it works out, you can have it. Now the only part i dont know is the code of the track. I wonder if Pecoo produced the old set track for MiniTrix.
Robin.
I suppose if you are doing a few the post costs wouldn't be too bad.
I suppose if someone could try it it could be worth the Society considering buying a bulk lot if it did work?
Actually (now I think about it) there is an incompatibility between N and 009 that affects this product - the replacement crossings have the chairs cast on, which will be in the wrong place for the 009 sleepers. Nothing that a file wouldn't fix though!
The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?
Ian
Quote from: Robin Webster on August 28, 2020, 07:05
I like fiddling around with track etc. I think i have a old N gauge Mini Trix turnout which i have no use for, i will see how easy it is to convert it to electrofrog, if it works out, you can have it. Now the only part i dont know is the code of the track. I wonder if Pecoo produced the old set track for MiniTrix.
I'd certainly be interested to see how a conversion works out. If straightforward handbuilding doesn't work out for me, I might consider converting Peco points. (I'm confident that I can build a crossing that works - it's the blades and tiebar that I've always struggled with.)
As far as I know Trix (and Minitrix) had their own manufacturing plant in Nürnberg. They were taken over by Mangold GmbH about 1970 then by Märklin about 1990. My understanding is that Märklin bought the company for its manufacturing capacity. So probably no Peco involvement.
I would be surprised if the rail code isn't 80. When I was first working in N gauge in the early 1970s, as an impoverished schoolboy, I was careful to use Farish points, with their live frogs, and Farish plain track, with its correct British N sleeper spacing, on visible parts of layout, but anything I could get my hands on second hand on the non scenic areas. I know I had a wild mix of brands including Fleischmann and they were all compatible.
Ian
I think you'll find that the Continental manufacturers use code 83, Ian, though it doesn't make a lot of difference in reality.
Quote from: Ian McAulay on August 28, 2020, 11:28
The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?
My thought was lost wax casting, but I found this:
https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2 (https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2)
Quote from: Hobby on August 28, 2020, 13:22
I think you'll find that the Continental manufacturers use code 83, Ian, though it doesn't make a lot of difference in reality.
I've just stuck a micrometer on a piece of Fleischmann N gauge track - 0.0825 in. Code 83, just like you said. I'd never noticed the discrepancy, which probably just means that with 1970s steamroller/pizza cutter wheels, it really didn't matter. (It also suggests that my usual test for uneven joints by running a finger along the rail isn't as sensitive as I thought!)
Thanks
Ian
Quote from: GraemeD on August 28, 2020, 17:20
Quote from: Ian McAulay on August 28, 2020, 11:28
The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?
My thought was lost wax casting, but I found this:
https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2 (https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2)
I checked the Wikipedia pages in English and German just to check that Neusilber really is nickel silver. Yes it is, so I have even less clue how these things are being made than before!
Ian
You'll notice a very slight lip when Tillig or Roco HOe track meets Peco HOe track! A little bit of use of a needle file sorts it out...
Quote from: Ian McAulay on August 28, 2020, 17:48
Quote from: GraemeD on August 28, 2020, 17:20
Quote from: Ian McAulay on August 28, 2020, 11:28
The material for the replacements is stated as nickel silver (Neusilber). I haven't a clue what the production process would be. Castings?
My thought was lost wax casting, but I found this:
https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2 (https://orchid.ganoksin.com/t/casting-nickle-silver/28183/2)
I checked the Wikipedia pages in English and German just to check that Neusilber really is nickel silver. Yes it is, so I have even less clue how these things are being made than before!
Ian
It can undoubtedly be cast, perhaps just not appropriate for hand-made jewelry or cottage industry model manufacture. No doubt the task can be outsourced to an industrial manufacturer, but that suggests quite high volume production.
I'm guessing it is quite easy to draw like wire given its use for rails, and stamped for coins for of course, so could the parts be stamped perhaps???
Edit:
My mistake I think - the term stamping applies to thin sheet.
My latest guess - CNC milling? that might work for small volume production.
The flange depth of the Peco 009 (and N) points is 1mm. Any less and you can get problems with some 009/H0e and N gauge wheel flanges.
The way the electrofrog points work require the frog check rails to be live. It is no good just doing the V rail, although that is better than all plastic!
I think that it is perhaps better to keep asking Peco to produce the 9-inch 009 points with electrofrog. (Just as they did in the late 1970's.) Peco did say that they would do this when it became apparent that the unifrog was not a viable option in 009, but that it was 'not a priority'.
An improved point from Peco would be ideal. It would be frustrating to spend time and quite a lot of money converting points to find they did not match up to the performance of drop-in replacements that were available soon.
On the other hand if there is a long time to wait and an upgrade can be done inexpensively, then that could make conversion worth while. I can see the attraction and challenge of "up cycling" if decent and cost-effective home-made frog replacement is feasible.
If new points are on the horizon then perhaps sort-term conversion is worth consideration? I think someone tried metal foil. I'm not sure what type, but I imagine the self-adhesive Aluminium home security foil might be suitable. Another suitable type might be the self-adhesive copper foil used for shielding electric guitar cavities.
From what Dave was saying on NGRM a new live frog 9" point is very low down on their list of priorities, after all, they've only just brought out the current ones!
If there is going to be long wait I wonder if it would be worth trying a foil conversion even if only as a temporary one as "proof of concept" to see what if any improvement it makes? If successful but not a robust solution it might then be worth looking for something more permanent.
I see B&Q have copper tape (for use as slug deterrent). Hmm, my wife was wanting some slug deterrent for the tubs we've been growing salad crops in.
Well! My experiment of converting the MiniTrix switch / turnout to an electrofrog using basic hand tools failed. The only way around it is to cut out the plastic frog and scratch build a new one.
Robin.
When planning a layout, the 12-inch electrofrog and 9 inch set-track 009 points have the same exit angle, it is only that they are 38mm longer than the set-track points. (The Y is only 24mm longer.)
Because of this is should be easy to plan a layout using the 12-inch electrofrog points by just making it a few inches longer. You can still use the set-track curves, it is only the points that will be longer.
Because to the above I just do not see the problem, just plan the layout with the 12-inch electrofrog points and forget about using dead frogs.
If you are desprate for 9 inch points then use the 009 society sales (when it re-opens) and purchase second hand elecrofrog ones when they are on the stand!
Brian Meldon
Some people like small layouts, Brian, those extra inches would be too much... As for old electrofrog points on the secondhand stall you are joking, aren't you? I've seen more hens teeth on the stand than them!
When I was planning my layout I thought about using 12" points, but quickly realised that there wasn't the space so I used the 9" ones.
Quote from: Hobby on September 01, 2020, 14:23
Some people like small layouts, Brian, those extra inches would be too much... As for old electrofrog points on the secondhand stall you are joking, aren't you? I've seen more hens teeth on the stand than them!
No, I am not joking, they do pop up quite often on the sales stand, I saw some sold at Swanley last year, there were none at Beccles this year, but it was not the full stock. They are often just in a box amongst other points or loose stuff, it is always worth having a rake through these boxes.
But I agree that there is probably one 9 inch electrofrog in every 30 other 009 points, so yes they quite unusual and not at all reliable in supply.
You must get them before I get there then! As I said I can't remember the last time I saw one and I've been asked enough times for them!
I have to say I need those inches too. I've been mucking around with my layout design to see if I can squeeze 12" points in without much success. I think I'll be reaching for the soldering iron.
Ian
Ian, someone on the NGRM Forum has got some and will be telling us about them when he fits them, he also found some more photos of how they were fitted. Might be worth you having a look over there (note that you need to join to view, it's a private forum like this one).
Hi Blair, thanks for the heads up on that. It looks like a useful forum that I wasn't aware of, so worth joining anyway.
I'm planning to try a rebuild of a Peco point to electrofrog-ify it. I'll take some photos to record the process, so I can share it if it works. (Or even to say 'don't do this' if it doesn't!)
Ian
Here are a few images of my Sunday Minitrix/Peco project.
Found here: https://imgur.com/a/MfoMkVd
The second image got mixed and should be at the end.
Ian this is for you send me your email so we can contact eachother.
Robin
Hi Robin
That looks very neat and much the same as I'm planning to do to a Peco point. That's my project for later this week. My intention is to replace all the peco sleepers with copper clad from the closure rails to the heel end and retain the stock rails as you have.
Email coming via a PM.
Ian
Quote from: Robin Webster on September 06, 2020, 18:02
Here are a few images of my Sunday Minitrix/Peco project.
Much impressed! It looks like you have done a significant part of the critical work in scratch-building a complete turnout!
Thank you gents. As I thought, it would be easier to scratch build a turnout then to try and convert one. But it works. A few electrical gaps have to be cut in the sleepers. I used Micro Trains bogies as my test tool.
Robin.
(https://i.imgur.com/oFIjLFO.jpg)
Converted MiniTrix turnout to a live frog.Just a dash of paint. Its ready for service.
Robin.
Quote from: Robin Webster on September 08, 2020, 21:44
(https://i.imgur.com/oFIjLFO.jpg)
Robin.
Perhaps it is just the angle of the photo, but it looks like the point of the V in the frog is too close to the curved stock rail and that wheel flanges on the leading axle will hit it if they are of the thin but deep wheel profile.
The miss-alignment between the frog and the original curved rail may also give problems.
But I am sure you have tried this with a wide range of wheel profiles.
As it happens the point of the frog being too vclose to the curved rail was one of the issues with the pre-2010 Peco 12 inch 009 points that was correcred when they updated them in 2010.
Brian, the toughest part of this conversion was the frog, and in particular it's location to both straight and curved sections. I used the NMRA N scale gauge for the frog and guard rail spacing. Wheel sets run through the frog are MicroTrains.
Greenwich.
Dundas.
Roco.
Mini Trains. Loco and freight cars.
Kato 11-104 Chassis.
Any older stock in my collection have been converted to NMRA standards or the wheels have been replaced.
So a conversion can be done.
Robin.