I just won a loco (Joueff Decauville) on eBay. It needed a good clean up as there as there were a few issues, and I have a couple of queries that I hoped you could help with.
(1) One of the brushes has worn away to a stump and doesn't make contact. Can I buy new ones, if so where please?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49102143796_0a1bf27238_n.jpg)
(2) The whole mechanism is covered in a thick-ish stick black grease/oil which I want to replace. I have stripped it right down to components and wanted to know is it safe to just soak it all in IPA or similar, and then what do I replace the oil with? there are some nylon components so I guess it needs to be a synthetic oil but am not sure which to use. That was a hair by the way, not a loose wire ;)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49102330552_5ce7f504f7_h.jpg)
The first thing to note is that this model is now about 50 years old! They were produced from 1966 to 1971. Spare parts were never available from Jouef. (The 1980's version had a totally different much improved chassis.)
The body is somewhat over scale at about 6mm to the foot and the cab will tower over most 00 scale items. Cutting the cab down just makes them look odd.
Before embarking on any repairs, you need to be sure that the time you will spend will be worth your effort. In my opinion with these locos it is just not worth the effort if it for a loco you intend to use all the time. However, if it is in very good visual condition it is worth restoring the chassis for a loco that will be part of an occasional use collection.
These locos are known as 'coffee grinders' because of the excessive noise they make when in use. However, do not be tempted to use mineral oil on the axle gears as this can cause them to split.
Clean the chassis components with methylated sprits using a soft brush to get in any groves or corners. This will not damage the plastic.
What happens with the motor brushes is that they overheat. The heat causes the brush spring to lose its pressure that in turn causes the brush to spark a lot causing more heat and making the brush ware down and the spring to get even weaker!
In the short term try stretching the spring and keep using the worn brush. It should work ok provided there is still enough length to sit in the brush holder.
After 50 years the motor magnets have often lost much of their magnetism, again this can cause the motor to overheat. These can be re-energised in a high voltage coil, but these days it is easier to just replace it with a series of thin 'rare earth' disk magnets to make up the right length. That said prolonged use can still cause the motor brushes to overheat and the spring to deteriorate again.
The sides of the plastic body can be distorted and crack from heat from the the brushes. This happened when the locos were new and in 1968 Jouef added a moulded plate to the outside of the thinnest part of the tanks to stop this happening as much. It is unusual to find a flat side tank, pre-1968 version without distorted or cracked tank sides, and if you then run it for any length of time the heat will damage the body.
In the past (i.e. 1980's and 90's) I just replaced any faulty motors with an ECM1 motor. I just used the original motor holders bent inward soldered directly to the ECM1 brush spring plates, but these motors are now long out of production. In fact, you would be hard pushed to find any conventional motor with brushes available these days that will be of use, almost all the motors available now are either coreless or have precious metal wipers in place of conventional brushes. You would also need a shaft adapter for the gear wheel.
Brian Meldon
See this link to an article from 009 News all about the Jouef range with details about the diferent versions of the loco, the wagons, the coach and the track:
http://www.egger-bahn.nl/egger%20009%20soc%2050%20jaar.html#Jouef
Brian Meldon
Quote from: B.Meldon on November 22, 2019, 09:35
See this link to an article from 009 News all about the Jouef range with details about the diferent versions of the loco, the wagons, the coach and the track:
Thanks Brian, that is very interesting, some thing else to read over lunch. I doubt I will get much work done this afternoon ;)
Quote from: B.Meldon on November 22, 2019, 09:33
The first thing to note is that this model is now about 50 years old! They were produced from 1966 to 1971. Spare parts were never available from Jouef. (The 1980's version had a totally different much improved chassis.)
...
Brian Meldon
Hi Brian, that's very useful thank. I will reply in full later, apparently I am supposed to be going out at the moment..
Quote from: B.Meldon on November 22, 2019, 09:33
The body is somewhat over scale at about 6mm to the foot and the cab will tower over most 00 scale items. Cutting the cab down just makes them look odd.
Yes, it wasn't until I saw a video of a Decaville Loco at he Bredgar and Wormshill Railway that I realized this was the case
Before embarking on any repairs, you need to be sure that the time you will spend will be worth your effort. In my opinion with these locos it is just not worth the effort if it for a loco you intend to use all the time. However, if it is in very good visual condition it is worth restoring the chassis for a loco that will be part of an occasional use collection.
It is mainly for sentimental reasons, these were the first NG stock that I saw as a lad and so it it is almost synonymous with 009 for me, even though it isn't. I doubt that I would run it at the same time as other stock, but it does look right to me when pulling the matching rolling stock
These locos are known as 'coffee grinders' because of the excessive noise they make when in use. However, do not be tempted to use mineral oil on the axle gears as this can cause them to split.
I have refurbished other electrical models and always use silicon grease near nylon, if anything was actually needed, and just wanted to check
Clean the chassis components with methylated sprits using a soft brush to get in any groves or corners. This will not damage the plastic.
Good I have a bottle of that
What happens with the motor brushes is that they overheat. The heat causes the brush spring to lose its pressure that in turn causes the brush to spark a lot causing more heat and making the brush ware down and the spring to get even weaker!
In the short term try stretching the spring and keep using the worn brush. It should work ok provided there is still enough length to sit in the brush holder.
It doesn't want to come out easily. I may have a lead on something to replace it, but in the meantime I have bought some 3H pencil leads (as suggested eleswhere) to use as new brushes
After 50 years the motor magnets have often lost much of their magnetism, again this can cause the motor to overheat. These can be re-energised in a high voltage coil, but these days it is easier to just replace it with a series of thin 'rare earth' disk magnets to make up the right length. That said prolonged use can still cause the motor brushes to overheat and the spring to deteriorate again.
These springs are really taking a hammering aren't they? The magnet seems reasonably strong and will still lift the best part of a pack of Peco track pins, but we have a magnetizing coil at work I will try that first
The sides of the plastic body can be distorted and crack from heat from the the brushes. This happened when the locos were new and in 1968 Jouef added a moulded plate to the outside of the thinnest part of the tanks to stop this happening as much. It is unusual to find a flat side tank, pre-1968 version without distorted or cracked tank sides, and if you then run it for any length of time the heat will damage the body.
It has black wheels so I am guessing it isn't one of the earliest ones. The sides seem pretty flat and reasonably thick, although there is an annoying like nick out the bottom on both sides.
.. coreless or have precious metal wipers in place of conventional brushes. You would also need a shaft adapter for the gear wheel.
I agree not an easy task, but I may have a lead on parts from another chassis so here is hoping
Brian Meldon
Thanks again Brian. At this point I am happy to treat this as a learning experience and if it doesn't quite work out then so be it. If I can get the mechanics sorted but the body is still rough I will experiment with putting a kit body on it instead, but especially thanks for the warning about the heat issue.
Quote from: B.Meldon on November 22, 2019, 09:33
...
These locos are known as 'coffee grinders' because of the excessive noise they make when in use. However, do not be tempted to use mineral oil on the axle gears as this can cause them to split.
...
What happens with the motor brushes is that they overheat.
...
Thanks for the advice, the chassis has cleaned up nicely with meths. I want to go over it again to get the last few spots, but it would be usable as it is now.
I agree about not using mineral oil, I would normally use a thin smear of silicon or lithium grease can yo see an issue with that here?
You were not wrong about the over heating. I had the motor working with new brushes for only 30 seconds before it started to get really hot! I have rebuilt plenty of small electric motors in the past but nothing quite like that. I can see why they melted.
I'm intrigued as to what the chassis looks like inside. Would you be able to post a photo or two please?
Brian mentions re-magnetisation (or replacing or supplementing the magnets) to reduce heating. The theory is sound. It should also reduce the speed*, or at least the no-load speed and help prevent the motor running in near stall conditions which is why the windings run hot. If you are experimenting/tweeking/tinkering performance I'd love to hear how you get on.
* "Field weakening" is a traditional of increasing motor speed, but to be used with caution as it could lead to motor destruction.
Hi,
Cleaning
I wrote an article for the 009 News on the topic. It showed that you can clean engines by running them in a container full of tap water, a few soap shavings (about half a little finger nail) will help to get the grim shifted. Key thing is to thoroughly dry the mechanism afterwards (2 days on the radiator with a spin once a day). The pictures showed a test run of the method, not my idea, but a commonly used trick by slotters, on 8 chassis from the early 1970ties (new old stock, gunged up to more-or-less standstill by their degrading oil). As I can't upload them here I can't show them (I have copyright issues with the cloud in whatever disguise it comes :-\).
However, it works a tread in most cases, out of 8 mechanisms one had to be taken apart as it wouldn't budge. Of course, the method is for mechanisms in working condition only, and a full lubrication session afterwards is compulsory!
Lubrication:
I never had problems with Vaseline on Nylon, so I'd be surprised if you couldn't use that. The modern version is Teflon grease. You want grease on the gears and oil in the bearings, so silicone oil is the choice for the bearings. If in doubt look for the 'Labelle' range of lubricants, which are synthetic, i.e. not mineral-oil based.
A reasonable good infotainment can be watched here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQkU18WmuWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQkU18WmuWw)
... with following notes:
1. The grease (the white stuff, probably the Teflon grease I mentioned) he applies: he uses way too much, a pin-head size plop suffices.
2. He then proceeds to oil the worm, i.e. the same mesh he just greased. Big mistake, especially worm gear meshes need grease as they are sliding meshes, not rolling meshes.
3. He has an open 1-stage gear train, on multi-stage gear trains lubrication of each gear-mesh is required, which can be tricky in gearboxes.
3. He oils the rear bearing of the motor twice, don't do that, once is enough, it doesn't matter, which side.
4. He oils the commutator, don't do that. The brushes contain carbon, which is a lubricant, the oil will only turn the carbon wear into a gunge, which can shorten the contacts, i.e. stop the engine working (so he can sell more of his cleaning gadgets, which don't work better than method above). :laugh:
5. He forgot all the rod bearings, gear-shaft bearings, and axle bearings, including the tender.
But minus those advertising-over-icings it is good and sound information. :laugh:
There web-site is: https://labelle-lubricants.com/model-train-lubes/ (https://labelle-lubricants.com/model-train-lubes/) (not what it says in the video!)
Okay, Labelle is the Bolls Boyce of model railroad lubricants, What's the alternative?
My GFN manual from the 70th recommends Vaseline and sewing machine oil, but Teflon grease and silicone oil weren't around then.
If you can't get Labelle, here are the alternatives:
1. Teflon grease is readily available, but any synthetic grease is a good alternative.
2. Silicone brake fluid is the grade of silicone oil you want., but synthetic brake fluid or weapons oil are equally good.
3. For mechanisms with metal gears, and practically all old (pre 1970ties) mechanisms Vaseline and sewing machine oil or engine oil SAE W10 is fine.
Noting that silicone-based lubricants in my experience don't last as long, i.e. require application more often (NO, not more at each session). :P
Last, not least, a very slight whiff of ATF (about a pin-head size drop or less per 5m of rail) will substantially improve contact without adversely affecting traction, as in if it does you applied too much. It is a poor lubricant. Probably it will improve contact on your electrical pick-up springs (as in: I haven't tried yet, but on my to-do list of future tests).
Replacement brushes:
Look at the slot-car world, you might find suitable replacement brushes there. I can't see the exact dimensions from the picture, but would try Faller blomo brushes (look for 'T2-jockel' on ebay and e-mail him); I have filled brushes to fit in the past, so that's an option.
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
Quote from: GraemeD on November 24, 2019, 11:07
I'm intrigued as to what the chassis looks like inside. Would you be able to post a photo or two please?
It is still in bits but I can reassemble a few bits
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49115433361_28d52e32e6_n.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49114929973_4e70fcd786_n.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49102330552_03590fc560_n.jpg)
And this one I got from the web
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49114962313_71413a924e_n.jpg)
Quote from: Leprechaun on November 24, 2019, 11:15
Hi,
Lubrication:
I never had problems with Vaseline on Nylon, so I'd be surprised if you couldn't use that. The modern version is Teflon grease. You want grease on the gears and oil in the bearings, so silicone oil is the choice for the bearings. If in doubt look for the 'Labelle' range of lubricants, which are synthetic, i.e. not mineral-oil based.
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
Yes that helps loads, everything I wanted to know but was (not) afraid to ask. I have kept that as a .pdf in my "useful tips" folder :-)
So oil like this then? https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Labelle-Oil-fine-oil-locos/dp/B00AY0MNYW/ref=sr_1_16?keywords=labelle&qid=1574608644&sr=8-16 (https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Labelle-Oil-fine-oil-locos/dp/B00AY0MNYW/ref=sr_1_16?keywords=labelle&qid=1574608644&sr=8-16)
Update: I hope so I just bought it anyway. I hope its OK for 009 as the label only says for "Z/N/Sm/HO locos" ;)
Quote from: GraemeD on November 24, 2019, 11:07
I'm intrigued as to what the chassis looks like inside. Would you be able to post a photo or two please?
See this link to an on-line version of the 009 News artical all about the jouef range.
It has photos of both versions of the chassis used in this loco:
http://www.egger-bahn.nl/egger%20009%20soc%2050%20jaar.html#Jouef
Brian Meldon
I think mine is the 67-68 version, black wheels and no raised name plate. After all this Sven has some up with a Tranfabriek (?) solution if all else fails, but that would take me away from the whole idea of buying this in the first place.
Restoring without doing a complete motor transplant sounds like an interesting project! Replacing or supplementing the magnet as mentioned seems a good option as it will help change the motor constant and should improve performance.
Looking at the design it appears there is a square-ish bar magnet with pressed iron or steel pole pieces. It may well be possible to remove and replace the magnet as it appears there is a bit of plastic in front of it which presumably is the rear bearing. However, finding a magnet of the same size may be unrealistic and making a suitable pole piece to pack out any gap would be time consuming. Adding magnets to the back if there is space sounds more practical.
First for Magnets have a good selection https://www.first4magnets.com/ (https://www.first4magnets.com/)
Quote from: Leprechaun on November 24, 2019, 11:15
Hi,
Cleaning
I wrote an article for the 009 News on the topic. It showed that you can clean engines by running them in a container full of tap water, a few soap shavings (about half a little finger nail) will help to get the grim shifted. Key thing is to thoroughly dry the mechanism afterwards (2 days on the radiator with a spin once a day). The pictures showed a test run of the method, not my idea, but a commonly used trick by slotters, on 8 chassis from the early 1970ties (new old stock, gunged up to more-or-less standstill by their degrading oil). As I can't upload them here I can't show them (I have copyright issues with the cloud in whatever disguise it comes :-\).
However, it works a tread in most cases, out of 8 mechanisms one had to be taken apart as it wouldn't budge. Of course, the method is for mechanisms in working condition only, and a full lubrication session afterwards is compulsory!
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
This sounds very interesting. Can you let us know which 009 News issue this appeared in please as I can't find it.
Mick
Dear Stephen,
Yes, that is a good choice of oil, and the price is the same as in the bay of plenty.
For the gear-meshes consider one of these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B000NORVHI/ref=cm_cr_unknown?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=five_star&reviewerType=all_reviews&pageNumber=1#reviews-filter-bar (https://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B000NORVHI/ref=cm_cr_unknown?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=five_star&reviewerType=all_reviews&pageNumber=1#reviews-filter-bar)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Finish-Line-Teflon-Synthetic-Grease/dp/B002L5YYYA/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=teflon+grease&qid=1574683448&sr=8-6 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Finish-Line-Teflon-Synthetic-Grease/dp/B002L5YYYA/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=teflon+grease&qid=1574683448&sr=8-6)
No recommendation of a particular source or brand, just examples; apparently your local bicycle shop will have some. :laugh:
One tube should last you about 10 lifetimes, but that's no reason to dose heavily. :laugh:
Kind Regards
Waldschrat
Really, you think I know more than you do? :P
Would it be an acceptable alternative to you, m'learned friends, if I asked you to PM me your e-mail address, and I'll e-mail you the original, as in unaltered by our very creative editor? ::)
Makes it so much easier for me to find... :laugh:
Just asking...
Waldschrat
Simply posting the year and month it appears would suffice.
It was about 1 year ago..., or so. Is that close enough? :laugh:
My original was last modified 12.12. 2018, so it would be 2 or 3 month after that. That's of course, if he published it at all... ;)
We had an argument about copyright and creative editing, i.e. I disapprove of fact-distorting edited articles appearing under my name, that's why there won't be any more articles from me in the 009 news. :laugh:
And no, I don't keep records when where which article of mine was published; so, no, I can't give you the information your asking for as it is NOT simple.
Cheers
Waldschrat
Quote from: Leprechaun on November 25, 2019, 12:15
For the gear-meshes consider one of these:
Done :-)
I accidentally triggered a free amazon prime trial last week so am hammering that, it wasn't until afterwards I found out it is going to take a week. :-(
I already have some Teflon grease from repairing R/C Robot Wars Toys. It hardly looks touched :-)
Thanks again
Stephen
Quote from: GraemeD on November 25, 2019, 12:49
Simply posting the year and month it appears would suffice.
Not if you only just joined and only have 4 mags ;D
Mind you I just bought a load of back numbers on eBay :)
Quote from: GraemeD on November 25, 2019, 11:58
It may well be possible to remove and replace the magnet as it appears there is a bit of plastic in front of it which presumably is the rear bearing. However, finding a magnet of the same size may be unrealistic and making a suitable pole piece to pack out any gap would be time consuming. Adding magnets to the back if there is space sounds more practical.
The magnet comes out very easily, indeed it is the only thing holding the back of the motor together. I took it to work today and put it through our 5,000V magnetisng coil. It hardly made any difference which is a blow, so one of the technicians "lent" me a selection of magnets to try out.
Once I work out which is the best I will buy one from that site, thanks.
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on November 25, 2019, 20:28
Quote from: GraemeD on November 25, 2019, 12:49
Simply posting the year and month it appears would suffice.
Not if you only just joined and only have 4 mags ;D
Mind you I just bought a load of back numbers on eBay :)
It would then be easy for you to get a copy of the article, though! Anyhow seems it's a red herring as the article doesn't seem to have been published...
For the motors in these locos another easy option for a replacement magnet is to use several tiny disk 'rare earth' Neodymium magnets. These are available in many sizes including 3mm disks that are 0.5mm thick. Just use the size and quantity you need to fill the gap between the motor sides. These work well, they are not at all expensive (probably under £5 for what you need) and are easy to obtain in various sizes; see this e-bay link for an example of a UK seller:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262409989613
Brian Meldon
Quote from: Hobby on November 26, 2019, 09:24
It would then be easy for you to get a copy of the article, though! Anyhow seems it's a red herring as the article doesn't seem to have been published...
In which case there wasn't much point in making a posting on here with a brief summary about an article that "was written for 009 News" if it wasn't published anyway!!
A simple solution to satisfy curiosity about this rather innovative and unusual method of cleaning loco mechanisms in this case would now be to simply post it on here and then "leprechaun" will be able to be assured that the complete text will be available to the members, or at least those members who are members of the forum, without the editing which he objects to of the article that was submitted to the Editor of 009 News. I can't see why it seems to be necessary to make such a fuss about a very simple request for information that was temptingly referred to.
Err, slight mistake, but not on my part: the method is NOT new or innovative, I know about it for at least 30 years! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
When I acquired a job-lot of 8 unused Aurora chassis produced around 1972, which all had gunged up oil all over them, I thought, this is a golden opportunity for a more meaningful test, all brand-spanking new, never run, all gunged up good and proper. With plenty of spare parts I could chance it as I can fix any potential damage. ;D
The other mistake is that the article is more or less all pictures with 1-liner comments, so posting the text only isn't much more than the summary you've got! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
But since you asked so nicely the text is at the bottom, under my signature.
And of course there is point in writing here, or do you think it's only try if it was in the 009 news? Then I pity you, I wouldn't believe anything in any news paper without a pinch of caution, especially if you've seen what some editors get up to. :laugh:
But if you think I'm lying feel free and google for the method, there's plenty about it on the Internet. ;D
Cheers
Waldschrat
=============================
Power washing your chassis
Another tale on the Internet is, that you can clean mechanisms by running them in water. As I had several slot car chassis, new old-stock from the 70ties that were oozing gunged oil, it was time for a trials series. No apologies that these are no model railway engines, but you struggle to find a job lot of 8 new old-stock engines with gunged oil like that.
Picture 1: Brown Sauce, but not as we like it, nor where I like
Picture 2: Into a jar of clean tap water, with power leads attached, at about 8V out of 16V; note the lit light, but no action, other than the bubbles from the anchor as it warms up. The gunge stops the anchor rotating.
Picture 3: A couple of careful notches with a tooth pick on the gear wheel, action as I like it
Picture 4: Some soap shavings, very small amounts, added, - and volá, murky waters
Picture 5: That doesn't look exciting; time for a powered rinse in fresh water
Picture 6: The gunge comes out, evidently
Picture 7: Comparison, before and after; no price for guessing, which is which; even though we learn some corrosion's going pretty fast; but nothing a glass fibre pen can't fix.
- Chassis dried with paper towel, blowing out droplets by mouth.
- 2 days on the radiator at low temperatures, with a manual spin twice a day to ensure trapped water is released.
- Out of 8 chassis one did not work, and wasn't one to be coaxed into running from the outset, but all others eventually ran smoothly, and still run nicely a year later.
No apologies that these aren't model railway chassis. But a suitable batch for meaningful trials isn't that readily to come by. These 8 chassis were all brand spanking new, manufactured around 1972, and had never run. None was running freely before the wash, even so 2 would run; the rest needed a little push or 2 to get them started.
Not sure whether I blew a bulb or 2 with the temperature shock, or whether they stopped working due to (local element) corrosion; on the list of things to do, but obviously it's better to remove any bulbs; I left them in place for the pictures so you can SEE the power is on.
=================================
Quote from: Leprechaun on November 26, 2019, 17:58
But since you asked so nicely the text is at the bottom, under my signature.
And of course there is point in writing here, or do you think it's only try if it was in the 009 news? Then I pity you, I wouldn't believe anything in any news paper without a pinch of caution, especially if you've seen what some editors get up to. :laugh:
But if you think I'm lying feel free and google for the method, there's plenty about it on the Internet. ;D
Thank you, the text of your article is clear enough and I can understand how it works without the photos, so that is very interesting and helpful.
I don't understand your sentence above - "or do you think it's only try if it was in the 009 news? Then I pity you," and I certainly don't need patronising comments thank you.
Why would I think you are lying? What I do think is that you need to be a little less sensitive.
Quote from: Hobby on November 26, 2019, 09:24
Quote from: Stephen Rainsbury on November 25, 2019, 20:28
Mind you I just bought a load of back numbers on eBay :)
It would then be easy for you to get a copy of the article, though! Anyhow seems it's a red herring as the article doesn't seem to have been published...
Sadly they are from 2010-2014, so still a gap. I would happily buy a CD of the PDF back numbers that are sent abroad :)
Quote from: B.Meldon on November 26, 2019, 09:26
These work well, they are not at all expensive (probably under £5 for what you need) ..
Thanks, I already have a few that I will try once it is all back together again.
Re. brown sauce, I guess that would ideally be HP. Despite the 'blend of oriental herbs and spices' therein (if I remember the label correctly) I'm guessing it would be the vinegar which does most of the work.
David.
Quote from: clayliner on November 27, 2019, 18:07
Re. brown sauce, I guess that would ideally be HP. Despite the 'blend of oriental herbs and spices' therein (if I remember the label correctly) I'm guessing it would be the vinegar which does most of the work.
I hate to think what it does to a stomach. It cleans up coins, but leaves a strange patina, so I don't fancy trying it on a delicate part of a loco :(
No,
in that case I was jocular about the dirty water. You run the water for a minute or so and it runs better with little dirt emerging. You add a little soap and it goes from clear to murky in about 20s! :laugh:
Cheers
Waldschrat