Hi Folks
My current stock is a 'mish-mash' of various couplings :-
The 00 stuff is a mix of Bachmann, Mainline and Ratio tension locks type which seems to work reasonably well (most of the time).
However, the 009 stock only has 'proper' couplings on the locos - a mix of Bachmann and Kato chassis. I'm wondering if there is a preferred standard that people have evolved to, including ease of uncoupling...I only have scratch built wagons in 009 at present so, now would be a good time to standardise.
Thanks for any views /experience,
Dave
Ooh! is that the sound of a can of worms being opened?
Seriously, I doubt if you'll get a majority opinion here.
Have you tried searching the forum for "coupling"? It has been debated several times...
Personally, I use the Greenwich couplings.
Also depends on what you want to do... Automatic or delayed coupling/uncoupling for instance... Interchangeability with other people's stock which may inhabit your layout or you may want to run on someone elses...
In the main I've seen two types used, the most common is the "Bemo" type, which in various forms is used by all the main British and European manufacturers, and the standard N gauge coupling. The two are not compatible unless you have a special converter wagon (shades of Triang and their horsevan with a Triang coupling one end and a Peco/HD one the other!)...
There are others but they are much rarer, such as MicroTrains knuckle couplers.
The Greenwich mentioned by Hugh is a variation of the Bemo type but looks much neater and can be converted to auto coupling and uncoupling using magnets in the track and, for scratchbuilt/kit built stock is what I'd suggest you use.
Thanks both
The 'Greenwich' certainly looks like it'll do the job. I'll have a search on the forum, as Hugh suggests, and see what other views there are.
Dave
*
The Greenwich (which I heartily recommend on the basis of use on my three "O9" layouts) can also be adapted to include a delay facility by the addition of a (Paul Windle style) fixed pin.
CP
CP - I'm quite intrigued - what is the benefit /use of the delay ? Could I see a Youtube clip of it in action perhaps ?
Also, mention has been made above of 'autocoupling'. The only time I can do this is with a loco (00) pushing two tension-locks together....there must be some other mysteries at play methinks !
Just a dumb beginner I'm afraid...but, thanks for the response anyway.
Dave
May I chip in re "delay" with regard to couplings, for the record may I just say that I use "DG" couplings which are like the "Grenwich" couplings but have a built in "delay" feature. Lets say you have a siding with an uncoupling magnet a little way in, without a "delay" feature on the coupling you uncouple your wagon at the magnet and then back away from it leaving the wagon where it is.
With a "delay" feature in the coupling you propel your wagon up to the uncoupling magnet, the coupling uncouples and goes to the "latch" position allowing you to keep propelling the wagon along the siding to leave it where ever you wish rather than as a little clump of wagons at the magnet.
If then we imagine you have a fan of sidings, you only need one uncoupling magnet at the start of the fan so you can uncouple and propel the wagons to whichever siding you wish.
I hope this helps.
John Bruce No7.
*
The use of delay action can be seen in this short film of my "O9" "Brink Valley Tramway" layout when exhibited at Utrecht in 2013. Essentially the delay action permits uncoupling over a magnet and then pushing (without recoupling) to another location. I find it works best with Greenwich loops on only one end of rolling stock, and the delay pin on the other end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZfacsSGbzk
CP
*
Having just seen the comment above from John Bruce, I would say that there is a difference in the delay feature of the DG type couplings. These feature a second moving part (besides the coupling loop). The advantage of the pin added to a Greenwich coupling is that it is fixed and thus non-moving. Granted it is not as sophisticated as the DG (and the very similar B&B), but it has the advantage of greater simplicity and ease of installation. The delay pin is simply glued into a hole in buffer beam of locomotives or the headstock of wagons.
CP
There are mainly 2 independent standards:
1. National Model Railroad Association (MMRA)
2. Norms European Model railways (NEM)
They both cooperate to some extend, but while NMRA as an American organisation has managed to push their coupler standard onto the manufacturers, NEM got bogged down in the tribalism of the manufacturers, and has a bodge job of coupler standards. This is why European rolling stock tends not to cooperate with each other, every manufacturer has his own variation on the MEM standard, making sure customers don't stray from the brand.
For example, NEM 356 is the 'Arnold' coupling, i.e. 'standard' N-gauge coupling.
Of course, NMRA doesn't cater for stock with side buffers etc..
For 009 / H0e the standard was set by Eggerbahn with a miniaturised H0 'Maerklin' coupling, and ROCO, Liliput, and Bemo followed suit. B&B, DG, Greenwich etc. are all variations of this 'drop-loop' design to NEM 360, and provided they are all fitted and adjusted in accordance with the NEM standard, they are compatible and should work well. You can pick your preference for looks and size, including versions with delayed coupling.
Sadly, the standard does not provide the dimensions for the narrow gauge version, and I use a ROCO mine tub/ truck as the reference, as these cannot be adjusted (for hook heights).
The 'Rolls Royce' of couplings is probably the Kadee (H0e)/ Micro Trains (N) knuckle coupler, very prototypical looks, top performance (including delayed uncoupling), and a price to match.
My personal top choice for 00 is the Alex Jackson coupling, discrete, top class performance (including delayed uncoupling), and unbeatably cheap. However, it requires working buffers.
Most common in Europe is the NEM360 coupling, while the 'Baker' coupling (drop hook) is dominant with British manufacturers (and Fleischmann). As I started of with Fleischmann I can confirm the coupling is inferior to the NEM 360 coupler, which I have converted to (before finding out about Alex Jackson; another rework on order! ::)).
As others here confirm, the British manufacturers are no better than the continentals, maximising incompatibility. :'(
As far as I have been able to work out, 'autocoupler' means nothing more than couplers will couple up if rolling stock are pushed together; as opposed to couplers that have to be manually engaged. However, most struggle to engage on curved track nevertheless.
'Delayed coupler' are couplers that stay disengaged when pushed over a de-coupler track, i.e. rolling stock has to be separated to reset the couplers and allow to couple up again (by pushing together).
Advantage: only 1 de-coupler in the station throat required, as opposed to one for each drop-off point; flexible dropping off of wagons, i.e. not limited to the de-coupler position.
Disadvantage: about twice as much force required to engage couplings, as the pushing action does not only has to engage the coupler, but also pre-set the retainer that holds the couplings open (except maybe Greenwich). With light-weight 009 stock this is an issue not to be despised.
There are others, some more (e.g. Veit Scharfenberg/ narrow gauge), some less prototypical, some providing electric coupling as well, which shows that there is no 'preferred standard', and various designs cater for various preferences. In 009 the 'drop-loop' design is certainly the most wide-spread.
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
Thanks all - I think the 'fog' is beginning to clear !
Managed to watch a few Youtube clips /movies of various systems in action. It seems that a little to-and-fro 'shuffle' over the magnets is the norm.
Re: the Greenwich - the clip showed one being made up from a sort of fretted 'flat-pack'. It took the modeller some 10 minutes to make just one coupling up. Can these be obtained ready assembled as it looked very fiddly to me ?
The Dapols and Kadees also looked nice. Pricey, but, if restricted to end-of-rakes, perhaps not too bad.
As an aside, are there any workable "3-link" systems that are a practical proposition (009) ? I think I saw one in operation at a show recently but that was 0 gauge. The operators were using magnets (rare-earth ?) on the end of long rods.
Quote from: Dave Cooper on April 23, 2019, 23:31
Thanks all - I think the 'fog' is beginning to clear !
.....
As an aside, are there any workable "3-link" systems that are a practical proposition (009) ? I think I saw one in operation at a show recently but that was 0 gauge. The operators were using magnets (rare-earth ?) on the end of long rods.
*
The question now arises as to what you want to achieve with a coupling system.
The mention of 3 link couplings (usually found on standard rather than narrow gauge railways) and miniature shunting poles is significant. Any sort of system that is manually manipulated in this manner is going to be difficult with the small size of "OO9" locomotives and rolling stock.
The most common method used for "OO9" in the UK is one of the variants of the Bemo type - including the Greenwich. I would suggest that the thing to do now is to visit exhibitions where "OO9" layouts are being operated in order to see what others do and have the opportunity to ask questions face to face.
CP
Quote from: Leprechaun on April 23, 2019, 22:49The 'Rolls Royce' of couplings is probably the Kadee (H0e)/ Micro Trains (N) knuckle coupler, very prototypical looks, top performance (including delayed uncoupling), and a price to match.
It is a very neat "impression" of widely used couplings in America, but bears no resemblance to most prototype narrow gauge couplers used in the UK or Mainland Europe. I've been using it on my TTe stuff and agree it looks nice but, like the Greenwich coupling it's still a compromise for use this side of the Atlantic. Someone in Europe actually does a miniature version of the coupler widely seen on German and Austrian NG lines, which itself is a variation of a SG coupling but from what I remember they are not cheap and I don't know how good they are in action.
Quote from: Dave Cooper on April 23, 2019, 23:31
Thanks all - I think the 'fog' is beginning to clear !
I'm sure that you'll be able see your way through even if some of the smog seems a bit thick!
Quote from: Dave Cooper on April 23, 2019, 23:31
Managed to watch a few Youtube clips /movies of various systems in action. It seems that a little to-and-fro 'shuffle' over the magnets is the norm.
It can be, but some of that is the driver not knowing exactly where the magnetic field is, and some may be down to 'sticky' couplings. On my own layout (where I use DG couplings but like the Greenwich they have a lifting loop somwork on the same principle) I've marked the position of the electromagnets by painting the sides of the rail
facing the operator to get around the first problem, and practice helps! As to 'sticky' loops it helps to build the couplings carefully and test them before final fitting so that the loops are able to flop about via gravity.
Quote from: Dave Cooper on April 23, 2019, 23:31
Re: the Greenwich - the clip showed one being made up from a sort of fretted 'flat-pack'. It took the modeller some 10 minutes to make just one coupling up. Can these be obtained ready assembled as it looked very fiddly to me ?
You may be able to get someone to make them up but I'm not aware of anyone who supplies them ready made. 10 minutes does seem a bit long to me, though if one were trying to film the process, build the coupling in such a way that the process can be clearly seen and give a commentary then it could take a while!
That being said they don't 'fall together', and careful building will result in a better coupling, but at less than
Can i just add one thing, Peco have done a pack of 4 couplings that you have to assemble (GR-101) that's been around since the year dot and was widely used for scratchbuilt and kit built stock in the past. My advice is NOT to use them despite their cheap price, they are crude and not all that reliable. They now have a decent set of ready assembled ones (GR-102) that are much better. But as Julien says, Greenwich are the pick of that type of coupler and you'd be much better advised to use them.
As Julien says, height is the key to setting up couplings of the Greenwich and similar design.
You can buy a height block and it is a good idea if you are not sure of the height to set up to.
However there is an inexpensive alternative. If you stick a short length of track down on a block of wood and insert a large wood screw at the end, on the track centre line, you can then adjust this to the correct height by screwing the screw up or down and that will do the job very well.
Frank
Frank, I've got one of those jigs (well, 2 actually - one 009 and one OOn3).
They work very well for setting all the couplings to the same height, but as you say unless you know what the 'correct' height actually is to set the screw at (ask any ten 009 modellers and get at least 10 different answers) can be a bit of a dead end when it comes to compatibility with another member's stock.
There is no 'standard' height for any 009 coupling.
I use the small Roco and Minitrains four-wheel wagons as a height guide as it is virtually impossible to change the height of these and I use them as bogies with the original couplings in use.
I use the Bemo/Egger couplings that almost all ready to run 009 and H0e have from new with ramps for uncoupling.
However even the ready to run manufactures have different coupling heights, some within their own range!
As has been mentioned height adjustment is critical, you must get this spot on. The coupling loops also need to be horizontal and the couplings should be level and to droop.
Spending time getting them all correct from the start will pay off later.
Brian Meldon
Thanks for all the advice folks - much food for thought here !
I think I'll invest in a pack of Greenwich, a height gauge plus some magnets and do some experimenting with a loco and a few wagons.
If it doesn't work out it won't break the bank, and, I'll probably learn something...
Will let you know how I get on.
Cheers for now, Dave
It depends on where you are of course, but could I suggest you find a local group to visit, or find a local exhibition with a 009 layout in attendance? (or more than one) Get chatting to the layout operators/owners. We're a friendly bunch and are willing to talk about aspects of the hobby. You'll get some good tips!
Dear David,
The Greenwich, DG, and B&B are etched versions/ variations on the Bemo/ ROCO/ Liliput coupling, created with the desire to produce something less bulky or with delayed action. Thus, if you dread the (fumbly) making up of the etches, just buy the Bemo (available from Parkside) or ROCO offering; the offering from Technomodell (part no 57623) is somewhat smaller, but harder to get.
If you contemplate 3-link, which is just about as fumbly to just couple in 00, then I'm wondering why you're worried about assembling a Greenwich coupler, that's about level par. ???
Quote
It is a very neat "impression" of widely used couplings in America, but bears no resemblance to most prototype narrow gauge couplers used in the UK or Mainland Europe. I've been using it on my TTe stuff and agree it looks nice but, like the Greenwich coupling it's still a compromise for use this side of the Atlantic. Someone in Europe actually does a miniature version of the coupler widely seen on German and Austrian NG lines, which itself is a variation of a SG coupling but from what I remember they are not cheap and I don't know how good they are in action.
On the continent (mainly Germany and Austria) the hopper type coupling (Trichterkupplung) is dominating on narrow gauge (and trams), for which (more or less) accurate models are available from Hummel (http://www.hustra.de/html/tram-bauteile.html (http://www.hustra.de/html/tram-bauteile.html) (manual operation), Gloeckner http://www.modellbau-gloeckner.de/edition-schmalspurkupplung/ (http://www.modellbau-gloeckner.de/edition-schmalspurkupplung/) (automatic operation), Veit https://www.modellbau-veit.de/produkte/zubehoer-h0e/kupplungen/index.php (https://www.modellbau-veit.de/produkte/zubehoer-h0e/kupplungen/index.php) (manual; compatible with Technomodell)), and ROCO (automatic, and compatible with Bemo, Liliput, Eggerbahn, Technomodell). ROCO, as on this coach: https://www.roco.cc/de/product/241547-0-0-0-0-0-0-003-0/products.html (https://www.roco.cc/de/product/241547-0-0-0-0-0-0-003-0/products.html); but you need to order that as a spare part.
Second-widely used is the Scharfenberg (Schaku), models of which are available from Hummel (2 versions, manual magnetic and mechanical {the old Heinzl/ Hamo coupling}) and Veit (automatic). Good pictures can be found here: https://www.elriwa.de/produkte/ersatzteile/kupplungen/spur-h0e/?p=2 (https://www.elriwa.de/produkte/ersatzteile/kupplungen/spur-h0e/?p=2); where you find prices and parts numbers too.
Note that compatibilities are limited, with the ROCO the most widely compatible, followed by Bemo, Liliput, Greenwich, B&B, and DG as the most widely used.
Just to spice things up, I enclose the picture of an IMOTEC Schaku, sadly not available anymore; this made 2-pole electrical connection too. Size-wise the Veit is quite close; and yes, that's the tip of a Biro for size comparison! Left with close-coupling kinematic, right without. :laugh:
Hope this helps
Waldschrat
Here is another one to consider
https://tramfabriek.nl/couplings.html
https://tramfabriek.nl/coupling-manual.html
Mac
Quote from: JulienW on April 24, 2019, 08:55
On my own layout (where I use DG couplings but like the Greenwich they have a lifting loop somwork on the same principle)
Which model/type do you use there seem to be a number of them ?
It seems that the world is full of couplings ! Thanks again for all the links, images and prices etc.
Just found out that a nearby town has a model railway club. Don't know if they do 009, but, probably worth a visit anyway. The "Branchlines" groups are all a bit too distant...
There is a large(ish) MR exhibition coming up in Bristol soon, so, may find a suitable layout or two there.
Regards,
Dave
I think it's worth re-iterating that in the UK the vast majority of OO9/HOe layouts use the Bemo/Greenwich style coupling, so most of the stock you will buy will have one of those types, and then ask yourself whether it's worth re-inventing the wheel!
Thanks Hobby. I'll certainly try a pack of "Greenwich" (or, similar) as a 'starter-for-ten' (no pun).
I'm quite happy to leave 'the wheel' as it is ! The 3-link idea was really a "I wonder if " thing, but, having looked at what the dimensions would need to be...etc
Dave
I fully agree with Hobby, and after I couldn't find the standard for the Bemo coupling, which is derived and the same as Liliput H0e and Eggerbahn, in the NEM, I eventually remembered where the dimensions are: in the Fremo standards, seehttps://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?eID=tx_securedownloads&u=0&g=0&t=1556453792&hash=fd57025b603504f7eda6cb430058908949fbadeb&file=fileadmin/redaktion/H0e-Norm/H0e-Norm.pdf (https://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?eID=tx_securedownloads&u=0&g=0&t=1556453792&hash=fd57025b603504f7eda6cb430058908949fbadeb&file=fileadmin/redaktion/H0e-Norm/H0e-Norm.pdf)
Don't forget that the other dimensions have to be taken quit-pro-quo from the NEM!
With regards to interoperability and compatibility there is more to consider than just the coupling, wheel sets being the next most important thing. Following the Fremo standard ensures the widest possible compatibility, even if you don't build modules. Quite a lot of H0e/ OO9 models are build for a minimum radius of 360mm, for example. If you struggle reading the document, give me a shout, err, pardon my French, PM.
I enclose the drawings for coupler and wheel sets.
Cheers
Walfschrat
Quote from: Mac Strong on April 26, 2019, 19:35
Here is another one to consider
https://tramfabriek.nl/couplings.html
https://tramfabriek.nl/coupling-manual.html
Mac
A variation on the Greenwich (same 'business' end)
Quote from: JulienW on April 24, 2019, 08:55
On my own layout (where I use DG couplings but like the Greenwich they have a lifting loop somwork on the same principle)
Quote from: Mac Strong on April 26, 2019, 20:01
Which model/type do you use there seem to be a number of them ?
I use the type D - TT/009 - and type A - 2mm /N - that are essentially the same size but the Type D are etched in thicker metal (I can't recall exactly but I have a feeling the difference is 10 and 12 thou sheet).
Quote from: Leprechaun on April 27, 2019, 15:32
I fully agree with Hobby, and after I couldn't find the standard for the Bemo coupling, which is derived and the same as Liliput H0e and Eggerbahn, in the NEM, I eventually remembered where the dimensions are: in the Fremo standards, seehttps://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?eID=tx_securedownloads&u=0&g=0&t=1556453792&hash=fd57025b603504f7eda6cb430058908949fbadeb&file=fileadmin/redaktion/H0e-Norm/H0e-Norm.pdf (https://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?eID=tx_securedownloads&u=0&g=0&t=1556453792&hash=fd57025b603504f7eda6cb430058908949fbadeb&file=fileadmin/redaktion/H0e-Norm/H0e-Norm.pdf)
Don't forget that the other dimensions have to be taken quit-pro-quo from the NEM!
I enclose the drawings for coupler and wheel sets.
Cheers
Walfschrat
The problem with the Fremo standard for Bemo/Egger couplings is the + or - 0.3mm tolerance. If you stick to this you can end up with a 0.6mm difference between two couplings, and that is too much to make them work reliably. It would probably be ok on a layout without any shuntting but if you want reliable shuntting as I mentioned before they must be spot on to work reliably.
Also, I will have to measure them again, but I think that couplings on the small Roco four-wheel wagons are not set at Fremo height of 6.5mm to the underside of thje loop, and it is very difficult if not impossible to change these. So, if you stick with the Fremo standard you can not use these small roco wagons, or they will not reliable work with all the other couplings set to the Fremo height. But I will have to measure them again to be sure.
Brian Meldon
Dear Brian,
If that is too much, than what tolerance do you work to? Spot on, i.e. exactly the same is impossible. Apart from the fact that nobody (and your name is not nobody!) can build anything without tolerance, just the slack in the axle bearings and the coupling hinge will make for part of this tolerance.
Of course, one way of knowing they are 'spot on' is when the hoops don't rise (as they hit head on), i.e. the couplings have to be slightly different heights to work! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
The Fremohicans shunt like mad, and they meet to operate, not to exhibit! Your statement that there is a problem with their standard is simply wrong, because you're speculating! ;D
Cheers
Waldschrat
Hi All - a quick update...
I went to a large(ish) exhibition in Bristol recently but, surprisingly, found no couplings for sale !
There was quite a bit of advice (and, some expected bias) on the various forms /types available. However, I notice that Dundas Models (see advert on the back page of 009 News) has some Greenwich couplings and accessories available so I think I'll pop an order off to them.
The trip wasn't wasted however as I found a very reasonably priced 2-car DMU for the standard gauge section of the layout !
Thanks for all the excellent tips /feedback so far.
Dave
TBH it's unlikely you would find any at a mainstream exhibition rather than a narrow gauge one. Narrow Gauge is still specialist stuff and as such extras for it won't be sold at mainstream shows. Even some of the smaller NG shows won't have them. Best to order stuff like that online!
To add to this I have just done some measurements of the coupling heights of various ready to run H0e items. This is the measurement to the underside of the loop. The underside of the loop is also where the slope on the pin needs to start.
Roco:
Small four wheel wagons: 5.8mm (This is what I use as a guide as they can not be changed)
Larger bogie wagons: 5.8mm
Egger-bahn:
Four wheel trucks: 5.8mm (1963 onwards, first to use these couplings)
Four wheel vans: 5.8mm
Four wheel bogie coaches and wagons: 5.8mm
Tram coaches: (Bogies mae by Lima) 5.8mm
Locos: 5.8mm (No loop fitted.)
Jouef:
Decauville V Skip: 4.4mm
Decauville toastrack coach and log wagon: 5mm
Bemo: 5.8mm. (Others will need to confirm this as I do not have many Bemo items with the original couplings.)
Liliput:
5.8mm (Note the couplings tend to start to sag over time in the pivot and in the NEM socket.)
Tillig: 6.3mm. (Measured on the locos that do not have a loop.)
New Minitrains:
Wagons and coaches: 5.8mm
Locos: Most are higher than 6mm, but as I have altered all my ones I can not measure them now.
Perhaps others could add the Peco 009 items as I have none to measure.
So going by the above it would appear that most RTR H0e manufactures use 5.8mm coupling height.
If anyone has any other measurements please do let us know.
B Meldon
Thanks both - points noted.
Just had a look at my (very limited) NG stock and 5.8mm is do-able with a little tweaking here and there, So, I think this will be a good reference point for me.
Regards,
Dave
You'll get fairly quick with the Greenwich coupling with time and practice. I normally batch build a load so I have some in stock.
They are however worth the effort to get right, the pleasure of hands off shunting is really nice. As they also do the NEM version, it's not that hard to upgrade some RTR stock. I even managed to retro fit some roco bolsters with Greenwich at each end of a rake.