There is a possibility that money and time will allow a trip to the UK. As it would be primarily to visit a friend, we would stay in the London area, but would have quite a bit of free time.
If there were only one show you could attend in a given year, which would include the most 009 exposure? By that, I mean regarding 009 layouts, dealers, mfrs and vendors whose focus is big in 009.
Suggestions?
Thanks.
Jim F
At a guess probably the 009 Society AGM/ Narrow Gauge South at Eastleigh on April 7th. Should also be fairly easy to get to by rail from London too.
Edit: I realised that I should have stated that the April 7th date is for the 2018 AGM.
Quote from: Jim Flynn on December 31, 2017, 10:39
There is a possibility that money and time will allow a trip to the UK. As it would be primarily to visit a friend, we would stay in the London area, but would have quite a bit of free time.
If there were only one show you could attend in a given year, which would include the most 009 exposure? By that, I mean regarding 009 layouts, dealers, mfrs and vendors whose focus is big in 009.
Suggestions?
Thanks.
Jim F
ExpoNG at Swanley is the one I would go for. Twenty minutes out of London on the train. Far bigger than the AGM, and more chance of staying awake!
I'd have thought they'd be about the same size but with more OO9 at the AGM.
However Jim hasn't said when he'll be coming across so the likes of NGNorth may also be a possibility, as could others!
Unfortunately, in my experience and despite what the adverts say, Expong is not a very large show, the 009 Society AGM show is much larger. (To be held at Eastleigh near Southampton now). I would not comment on quality of show. The best and biggest by a long way to my mind was the sadly missed Shepton Mallett show.
Thanks for the replies, so far.
As for timing, it's open ended, so I would plan the trip to coincide whatever show I was going to attend.
Jim
Quote from: Andrew Emery on December 31, 2017, 13:52
ExpoNG at Swanley is the one I would go for. Twenty minutes out of London on the train. Far bigger than the AGM, and more chance of staying awake!
The actual AGM itself is usually in a seperate room, and attendance at the 'official' but is not compulsory! :laugh:
Quote from: JulienW on December 31, 2017, 12:08the 009 Society AGM/ Narrow Gauge South at Eastleigh
Has it moved from Sparsholt?
Yes.
Without qualifying which is "better" I would agree that Narrow Gauge South, in April, or EXPONG, in October are the two most sensible from London area. Either have as much chance of good weather as the other! :D
Quote from: danny on December 31, 2017, 17:38
Quote from: JulienW on December 31, 2017, 12:08the 009 Society AGM/ Narrow Gauge South at Eastleigh
Has it moved from Sparsholt?
Quote from: Hobby on December 31, 2017, 19:28
Yes.
Without wanting to go off topic too much, can I ask if there was a particular reason for this? I had heard previously that it might be moving to a venue with less awkward access than the individual small rooms at Sparsholt.
Quote from: danny on January 01, 2018, 19:58
Quote from: danny on December 31, 2017, 17:38
Quote from: JulienW on December 31, 2017, 12:08the 009 Society AGM/ Narrow Gauge South at Eastleigh
Has it moved from Sparsholt?
Quote from: Hobby on December 31, 2017, 19:28
Yes.
Without wanting to go off topic too much, can I ask if there was a particular reason for this? I had heard previously that it might be moving to a venue with less awkward access than the individual small rooms at Sparsholt.
Cost of venue hire --- Sparsholt College priced themselves out of the market.
Garry
Back to the original question. Jim asked : "If there were only one show you could attend in a given year, which would include the most 009 exposure?"
Definitely not Expong, for all that it is a great day out to meet the fellow afflicted and to spend loads of money at trade stands (all scales) but not to include the "most 009 exposure". Expong usually struggles to put together anything approaching 20 layouts not counting the micro comptetition ones and probably a half of these will not be 009. The 009 bi-ennial NG South put on by the Wessex NGM's has had over 20 layouts regularly since inception, most of them in 009 or HOe etc and most of them top quality and of a reasonable layout size rather than micro layouts. Nobody is saying that NGS is Better than Expong, that is a matter of personal opinion, but in answer to Jim's question, then NGS is most definitely more suitable as it gives more exposure to 009 which is what he asked for.
As for traders, the "premier" 009 trader will certainly be there - in the form of Andrew Hastie and Dundas models, 009 sales will be there and there is normally a good selection of the smaller specialist 4mm scale traders such as Narrow Planet, N Drive. Worsley etc, plus a selection of general modelling related goods, books etc etc. Admittedly nowhere near as wide a range of traders as you get at Expong, but concentrating on 009 and related, which again is what Jim asked for.
Mick
Quote from: MickT on January 02, 2018, 18:09
Back to the original question. Jim asked : "If there were only one show you could attend in a given year, which would include the most 009 exposure?"
Definitely not Expong, for all that it is a great day out to meet the fellow afflicted and to spend loads of money at trade stands (all scales) but not to include the "most 009 exposure". Expong usually struggles to put together anything approaching 20 layouts not counting the micro comptetition ones and probably a half of these will not be 009. The 009 bi-ennial NG South put on by the Wessex NGM's has had over 20 layouts regularly since inception, most of them in 009 or HOe etc and most of them top quality and of a reasonable layout size rather than micro layouts. Nobody is saying that NGS is Better than Expong, that is a matter of personal opinion, but in answer to Jim's question, then NGS is most definitely more suitable as it gives more exposure to 009 which is what he asked for.
As for traders, the "premier" 009 trader will certainly be there - in the form of Andrew Hastie and Dundas models, 009 sales will be there and there is normally a good selection of the smaller specialist 4mm scale traders such as Narrow Planet, N Drive. Worsley etc, plus a selection of general modelling related goods, books etc etc. Admittedly nowhere near as wide a range of traders as you get at Expong, but concentrating on 009 and related, which again is what Jim asked for.
Mick
I suspect it is quality, rather than quantity, that is sought after here. Expong has the quality, all the traders you mention, and an excellent venue within easy reach of London. In 2016 it certainly knocked spots off the AGM for quality - not all 'exposure' is nesessarily 'positive exposure'. As a visitor from overseas myself, ExpoNG 2016 had all I could wish for, and was well worth the journey.
Somehow, I feel we have not heard the last on this subject. Will all 'Trolls' please form an orderly queue..
That would indicate that the "quality" at the AGM is less than that at Expong, I'm sorry but I can't agree with that. As others have said until last year NGSW was far and away the best NG show, judged on quality or quantity. Now with it's demise there are several contenders, Expong is just one of them, the AGM is another as are the two shows in the North and the recent one at Tewksbury.
As for being within easy reach of Central London, Eastleigh is very easy to get to from London, being on the mainline from London to Southampton, and will only take about 1/2 hour longer than to Expong from the centre!
Quote from: Hobby on January 03, 2018, 09:30
That would indicate that the "quality" at the AGM is less than that at Expong
Yes
Its different, Andrew, not worse.
I don't think being judgmental is particularly appropriate here. If I had to sum up Expong I would say 'The best esoteric trade support of any show, too many booksellers, a lot of really excellent European models but not to my taste and not enough layouts generally. But those are observations, not criticisms. All shows have their own individual flavours.
The 'quality' of a layout surely must depend to an extent on who is looking at it, and is therefore somewhat subjective?
In the fist post Jim asked (my bold)
Quote from: Jim Flynn on December 31, 2017, 10:39
<snipped>
If there were only one show you could attend in a given year, which would include the most 009 exposure? By that, I mean regarding 009 layouts, dealers, mfrs and vendors whose focus is big in 009.
So, on the assumption that 009 is Jim's main interest then the show with the maximum amount of 009 (certainly as a % of the total layouts and probably number of 009 layouts too) in 2018 is more likely to be Narrow Gauge South (incorporating the 009 Society's AGM )at Eastleigh in April as opposed to ExpoNG in October, and most of the 009-centric manufacturers/dealers will (probably) be at both shows.
Quote from: Hobby on January 04, 2018, 09:28
Its different, Andrew, not worse.
Nobody said "worse". Let's not start adding words that were never used.
Jim,
Like you, I live thousands of miles away from the UK. Like you, I need to make judgement calls on what to visit and when.
In 2016 I flew to the UK and attended ExpoNG in Kent, whilst staying in London. The layouts were first-rate, the selection of traders was impressive, the venue was good, transportation from London was good and not to expensive or far. In short, I had a good experience and felt the trip worthwhile.
I also flew to the UK for the AGM. It was in a remote village, difficult to get to. There were traders, but space was at a premium - the venue had to be split between two sites due to lack of suitability of either for such an event. One part was not at the advertised location - it had been moved. A surprising number of exhibits were not of exhibition quality. (By the way, I would never exhibit my models because I know that nothing I produce is of exhibition quality, so let's put that one to bed before the Trolls start with it).
In short, I was unhappy with my AGM experience, with getting there, with getting back from where it was, and with what it was. By contrast, ExpoNG I enjoyed thoroughly.
I hope this assists you.
Kind Regards,
Andrew
OK but it's best not to judge on just one exhibition especially as the AGM is hosted by different Groups each year so will vary. Certainly the last time the group who are holding it this year put the AGM it was a first class show... I have to ask if you've been to an AGM hosted by this years organisers or are you basing it one one negative trip to a show run by another group?
(As regards the word "worse" it was you that negatively compared the AGM to Expo, not me, whilst you didn't use the word "worse" you did say one was not as good as the other which is the same thing! I just pointed out that it's different!!) :)
Actually there are many NG shows organised by local groups over the year so dependant on when Jim comes over he could fit in more than one so that's also worth considering. Also does he like talking to fellow OO9 modellers, if so a local group show or the AGM may be a better bet than a general NG show like Expo... Other things he needs to think about!
Jim,
My first AGM was at The Viking Hotel in York I think, about 1985.
There is little tolerance for differing opinion in this forum, you will find.
Kindest,
Andrew
That's a very unfair comment, Andrew. Are we not allowed to express a view contrary to yours?
What I and others have said is that Expo and the AGM are different types of show. Expo covers all scales of NG modelling like NG South West used to and some others like NG North still do whereas the AGM is aimed at OO9 modellers in particular. It depends on what Jim wants from his visit. I would agree that Expo is very good at some things but a Group show or the AGM are very good at others, but is one "better" than another, I don't think so.
I've been to many shows over the years, as well as organising many, and I would say that they all offer something different. Yes you can get many different standards of modelling, but that reflects the Membership of the Society and the local group. Having said that the standard at the AGMs tend to be fine, certainly at the last one in 2017 that I attended was easily on a par with the 2016 Expo...
Blair
Quote from: Hobby on January 04, 2018, 23:37
That's a very unfair comment, Andrew. Are we not allowed to express a view contrary to yours?
What I and others have said is that Expo and the AGM are different types of show. Expo covers all scales of NG modelling like NG South West used to and some others like NG North still do whereas the AGM is aimed at OO9 modellers in particular. It depends on what Jim wants from his visit. I would agree that Expo is very good at some things but a Group show or the AGM are very good at others, but is one "better" than another, I don't think so.
I've been to many shows over the years, as well as organising many, and I would say that they all offer something different. Yes you can get many different standards of modelling, but that reflects the Membership of the Society and the local group. Having said that the standard at the AGMs tend to be fine, certainly at the last one in 2017 that I attended was easily on a par with the 2016 Expo...
Blair
Ironically, that is exactly my point. I (or perhaps others, elsewhere) post for positive reasons, and rather than expressing a contrasting opinion, which would be reasonable, certain persons chose to attack that posting.
I'm having nothing further to do with this subject, and will not be checkng this thread again, so go ahead and enjoy. I am sure Jim is mightily impressed.
Jim, perhaps it's worth pointing out that there are several different types of NG show, which is what this thread has shown!
At one end there is the more commercial "general" NG show such as Expong, NG North and NG Tewksbury. They cater for all types of NG model railway enthusiast and get support from manufacturers from all scales and have layouts that reflect this. Of them Expong is currently the best. They can get very busy dependent on the size of the hall, rather like a normal large show.
The Society AGM is usually as large as the above but is, as would be expected, geared towards those of us who model in 4mm scale or less. It can have layouts in other scales but trade support is mainly from and for OO9 Modellers and layouts are mainly in the scales the Society support.
At the other end of the scale is the local Group show which can be either classified as a Members Day or an Exhibition depending on the organisers. They are a very different kettle of fish, small (generally around 10 or so layouts, some more, some less), trade support but not the full works and the Society Secondhand Stall. They are aimed at getting together NG modellers with like minds and the atmosphere tends to reflect that, very friendly, can be busy (Pewsey!), the AGM on a smaller scale.
There is a more recent type of gathering which two or three Groups have done which is the "open day", "works day" or whatever they call it which is not an exhibition as such but a meeting to show off people's work and get tips on various aspects of the hobby, East Midlands did one as have (I think!) SWOONS. Very good but for your purpose perhaps not what you are after.
I've tried to be as even handed as I can with the above, which you prefer very much depends on what you want to get from your visit, and I hope the above helps you make up your mind. Ideally I would suggest a visit to Expong, the AGM and at least one Members Day but as two are at opposite ends of the year that isn't going to happen!
Good luck!
Folks, sorry I have not posted any reply the last few days, things got sort of off kilter here a bit, hobby stuff was shoved aside somewhat. I'm off to work in a few, but will post my thoughts later today (I hope), tomorrow at the latest.
Thanks for the input.
Jim
I did realize, in asking my question, that I would get varied answers, and that folks replying would give their reasons for which show they recommended.
What I had not meant to do was to get anyone's knickers in a twist. It seems Andrew's did. I appreciate his input, but it seems he does not take well to folks disagreeing with him. Perhaps his oft mention of 'trolls' is indicative of his opinion of many on here? I am sorry he felt he had to leave the discussion.
As for the shows, I am leaning towards the NG South, in Eastleigh, for exactly the reasons given by Hobby and Julien, in particular.
My interests in going to a show would be: A) 009 UK themed NG layouts B) Traders, vendors, etc.., whose main focus is 009. Other than that, the only other interests would be UK themed 7mm NG layouts.
It will sound parochial, but I have zero interest in European rail, whether standard or NG, in any scale and really not much interest in any UK modelling in any scale other than 4mm and 7mm. So, at a show such as ExpoNG, anything not related to UK NG in 4mm (and maybe 7mm) would be a waste of my visit time.
One other item, at NG South, with it being the Society's AGM, I might meet a few more members, to put faces to names, than I would at the Expo.
Jim
Jim once you decide on a date it may be worth you keeping your eye on the Society Diary (on the website) and the UKModelshops Exhibition Guide if you are over for a few weeks, there may be other shows worth going to that are not NG specific but have something you'd like...
http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/events
Some 60 odd years ago there was a spate of correspondence in the RM about joining clubs, 'was it worth it', 'my experiences were not good' etc. I think I recall someone suggesting the problem was that some people are just not 'clubbable'. Seems to me that might still apply.
Hobby, I am going to try to work it so we are over for at least 2 weeks, if not 3 or longer. We have a good friend who lives in London, insisting we stay there so as not to have to pay for hotels, allowing us to extend our stay. Still some 'Ifs' factors in the equation.
So, going to one or more other events may be do-able. I do want to get a visit in to the Bluebell Railway, as the SECR and LBSCR are my standard gauge interests, though I don't do any modelling of them.
Rod, I think you are correct. I am not a 'club' person, more because my interests, as I stated earlier, are usually pretty specific. Being overseas, I don't feel I am so much a part of a 'clu', belonging to the 009 Society, as much a member of a group who shares info and experiences. My primary benefit is the News, each month, thouh I will most likely take advantage of the sales function at some point.
Jim
Oh dear Jim! My comment was not intended to be about you in any sense. Please accept my apologies if it offended you. If you make it to the AGM please do make contact.
Rod, no, I didn't take it that way for a instant. I was just saying that I am like some of those folks who you quoted.
Reading back, I can see where you might have thought I felt you meant me. Not at all.
One of the pitfalls of just text, verses the spoken word :)
Jim
I think it depends on the club... I was an active member of the Preston MRC in my younger days, even at one point on the Committee! However when I went into NG I found that the vast majority of "local" model railway clubs held little interest and, although I tried several, I never stayed with them. However as far as Societies such as ours (and several others) are concerned I've been an active member of several for many years and have even rejoined the WLLR with the intention of volunteering again! Horses for courses...
BTW Jim, if you are not already a member of NGRM-Online Forum I'd suggest you join it, it's a lot more active than this forum due to it covering all aspects of NG Modelling!
Quote from: Hobby on January 07, 2018, 09:31when I went into NG I found that the vast majority of "local" model railway clubs held little interest
I've found this as well every time I've considered joining a club. It probably does not help that there is more variation within NG modelling than there typically seems to be in SG (because there's less RTR?) so NG groups seem to work better if they cover a larger area than a 'traditional' model railway club (like the 009 Society area groups) and have less focus on building group layouts. I know there have been some very good 009 'club layouts' (Evaleight springs to mind) and I am not criticising these in any way, just observing that in narrow gauge it might be even harder to accommodate everyone's modelling interests than it already is generally, especially within a more general model railway club. I once listened to a committee member at a (mainly standard gauge) club explaining the incredibly complex and convoluted fictitious history he had had to produce to justify a layout on which stock from all of the big four companies could be run (there were I think more specific requirements as well). I think given that narrow gauge railways (at least in Britain) were unconnected and of different gauges this would be made even more complex. This is assuming there are enough NG modellers in the average local group to even consider an NG layout.
Getting back to the original question, I would probably agree that NG South would fit Jim's interests. In the past it has been mainly (though not entirely) 009 with a reasonable number of 7mm NG layouts as well. I like Expo just as much since it shows the variety of narrow gauge modelling (including the layouts that have visited from overseas). In the end I think which is 'best' is up to the individual modeller's tastes, but hopefully with more information about what to expect at each show it is possible to make an informed choice.
Back again..Looking forward to a little less 'busy' time here at the house.
Hobby, I am signed on with the NGRM-Online forum, as well as RMWeb, for it's NG content. I also am in the FB groups, 009 Modellers and HOn30, 009 and HOe Modelers. The last 2, I only look at maybe one a week or 2. To me, FB groups are more about 'Hey, look what I (did, made, bought, etc..)' so people will tell you how wonderful it is, almost instantly. A form of instant gratification. Mind, I think that applies to most, if not all, FB groups/pages.
With so many forums, groups, etc.., it just seems that info is now more difficult to find, being scattered all over. With NGRM-Online, I usually just look at the 4mm and 7mm sections under scale specific. The same with RMWeb, though it's not broken out.
I did note, the other day, that the Society Chairman left the FB group, after folks got very negative about something he said regarding RTR items.
To be honest, I have gleaned more from the Society News, in many cases, than from hopping around from forums/groups, spending time I'd rather not, looking for info.
Just me, I suppose.
Jim
With NGRM I just open the "new content" page, look through the list, open the ones I am interested in on another tab (looking at scale specific I'd miss all the prototype stuff amongst other things such as scenery tips, etc.) and then "mark all read" so i know where to start next time I visit...
I hate FB for these sorts of discussions so don't tend to post...
With RMWeb I just look at the NG section every so often as it's not that busy...