I'm sure I've read this several times before, but could some please remind me how to wire Peco 009 points in order to electrically bond the blades to the stock rails and make the frog independently switchable. I'm reviving a layout that hasn't run for a year or so and the lack of power to the frog end of some of the points is very noticeable!
I will endeavour to post up a guide here with photos for posterity once I've done the mods.
Hi there folks!
I'd be very interested in this answer as well. Also, as a very hamfisted solderer, can it be explained v e r y s l o w l y how I can avoid melting the whole thing!! :-\
Thanx
My suggestion is don't and I'll tell ye why.... although in a lot of places this stock rail bonding is suggested (Hornby even produce small jumpetrs for 00 to make it even easier), you also need a break between that and the frog (or use insulfrog points), which is ok in most scales, but with peco 009 points there just isn't room to do so. I've tried it and unfortunately it just means that the rails work loose and become unreliable.
Instead I suggest you follow the tried and tested method of feeding from the toe and isolating the far ends, then use an accessory switch which 'feeds' the frog directly, thus avoiding the need to rely on the point blade to remain in contact with the stock rail for through continuity. There is of course a small chance of a short then between the running rail and the other point blade, but in my experience that is rare unless you run seruiously out of gauge wheelsets.
Colin
Quote from: rhydddu009 on August 20, 2008, 22:58Instead I suggest you follow the tried and tested method of feeding from the toe and isolating the far ends, then use an accessory switch which 'feeds' the frog directly, thus avoiding the need to rely on the point blade to remain in contact with the stock rail for through continuity. There is of course a small chance of a short then between the running rail and the other point blade, but in my experience that is rare unless you run seruiously out of gauge wheelsets.
I'm finding part of the problem is power supply to the blades themselves. Will this approach power them via the frog or will they still rely on contact through the stock rails?
as long as you use electrofrog (the peco 009 points off the shelf are all electrofrog) then switching the polarity at the frog via a microswitch will power the blades too, meaning you can avoid the problem of requiring perfect contact between stock rail and blade - any bit of dirt/ballast etc causes serious unreliability if you don't. But you must make sure you isolate the rails at the far end of the point if you have any other feeds further up the line, otherwise you'll get a short (+ and - on the same rail!)
Colin
This is what I did on "Latham's Brewery" (aka the never ending story ;) )
Solder a wire to each of the stock rails (the ones which do not move) and also to the common crossing (or Frog) of the point. Run these to a single pole, double throw (SPDT) switch. Wire the frog to the common (center) contact of the switch and the stock rails to the outer contacts (poles) of the switch. If you mount the switch not to far away from the point you can also use the movement of the switch to change the point using a 'wire in tube' method (I've used the plastic sliding type with a hole for the actuating wire drilled through the toggle on the switch).
Yes, you can melt the plastic parts of the point with the soldering iron, but I use an 18 (or 15) watt iron with a pinpoint tip (designed for soldering up circuit boards) and work quickly.
All I can asy is that it has worked for me...
Quote from: JulienW on August 22, 2008, 15:28
This is what I did on "Latham's Brewery" (aka the never ending story ;) )
Solder a wire to each of the stock rails (the ones which do not move) and also to the common crossing (or Frog) of the point. Run these to a single pole, double throw (SPDT) switch. Wire the frog to the common (center) contact of the switch and the stock rails to the outer contacts (poles) of the switch. If you mount the switch not to far away from the point you can also use the movement of the switch to change the point using a 'wire in tube' method (I've used the plastic sliding type with a hole for the actuating wire drilled through the toggle on the switch).
Yes, you can melt the plastic parts of the point with the soldering iron, but I use an 18 (or 15) watt iron with a pinpoint tip (designed for soldering up circuit boards) and work quickly.
All I can asy is that it has worked for me...
Thanks guys. I'm already using miniature slide switches as the 'levers' for point control on another layout so this will be perfect.
Quote from: JulienW on August 22, 2008, 15:28
This is what I did on "Latham's Brewery" (aka the never ending story ;) )
Solder a wire to each of the stock rails (the ones which do not move) and also to the common crossing (or Frog) of the point. Run these to a single pole, double throw (SPDT) switch. Wire the frog to the common (center) contact of the switch and the stock rails to the outer contacts (poles) of the switch. If you mount the switch not to far away from the point you can also use the movement of the switch to change the point using a 'wire in tube' method (I've used the plastic sliding type with a hole for the actuating wire drilled through the toggle on the switch).
Yes, you can melt the plastic parts of the point with the soldering iron, but I use an 18 (or 15) watt iron with a pinpoint tip (designed for soldering up circuit boards) and work quickly.
All I can asy is that it has worked for me...
Many thanks for the quite comprehensive replies!
Is flux cored (electrical) solder ok, or would one of the lower melting point jobbies be better? I'm a better mechanic than electrician :laugh:
Quote from: vulcan on August 22, 2008, 16:03
Is flux cored (electrical) solder ok, or would one of the lower melting point jobbies be better? I'm a better mechanic than electrician :laugh:
Yes.
You want an iron that is up to the job (Watts) and of decent quaility (e.g. Weller, Antex or other known brand and not a "bargain" iron) , make sure the metal surfaces are clean (e.g. a glass fibre pencil), use some additional flux on the rails and pre-tin the wires.
Heat =/= Temperature.
If you have to spend an age fiddling about getting the rail up to temperature, trying to solder through oxide and other crud you are certain to melt the sleepers, but with practice and half decent equipment and preparation you can be in and out before the heat has time to spread far. Practice on some left-over rail is definitely worthwhile.
normal electrical cored solder is fine, I also use some brown gungy flux paste too - brilliant stuff but so old I don't know if it's still available! Colin
Thanx for the help guys - I'll go & start burning my fingers! :-X
Live long & prosper
Quote from: rhydddu009 on August 22, 2008, 17:56
normal electrical cored solder is fine, I also use some brown gungy flux paste too - brilliant stuff but so old I don't know if it's still available! Colin
Yes it is! - try Warton's brown flux jelly, e.g.:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Soldering-Equipment/Solder-Fluxes/Brown-flux-jelly/61559/kw/flux
There is also a "modern" equivalent in a spray, e.g.:
http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Soldering-Equipment/Solder-Fluxes/Future-315-low-residue-no-clean-flux/60050/kw/flux
which could prove useful if you need to solder where it is difficult to clean up afterwards, such as making repairs when the scenery is down. I don't use it with the spray, but apply the liquid with a cotton bud or needle and syringe.
The really aggressive fluxes (e.g. Fry's Power Flux) are only really useful where you can scrub the work under a tap afterwards.
Unfortunately switching the frog is sometimes not enough. You may also find in time that the moving blades lose contact with the frog at the pivot. The pivot is basically a fishplate. Because of this I also solder a fine wire across this joint as well to make sure.
Brian Meldon
I've been trying out the advice in this thread this evening and so far it's working perfectly :)
I will take and post a picture of a modified point when I have some daylight for others to reference. A few things I've found useful have been:
- solder the wires to the bottoms of the rails (cut away the webbing between two sleepers to get at it), this means the wiring will be invisible once ballasted and if you do happen to touch the wire on the sleepers you will be doing so on the bottom
- definitely pre-tin the wires, this avoids having to use three arms to hold the soldering iron, wire and solder to the point
- I bought some new wire today for this and got single strand in two out of three colours which I found very easy to solder but accidentally picked up normal multi-strand for my common return colour and I find this much harder to work with.
- work out which side of the points your wiring needs to come out of and orient the wires accordingly, this will make more sense when I post the picture
My confidence in doing this kind of work has risen enormously due to this discussion (and the adoption of single strand wire) so thank you all!
Quote from: stevefulljames on August 23, 2008, 23:52
- solder the wires to the bottoms of the rails (cut away the webbing between two sleepers to get at it), this means the wiring will be invisible once ballasted and if you do happen to touch the wire on the sleepers you will be doing so on the bottom
Yes, I have done this with N gauge, or should I say n scale, track: pointed the wires inwards towards the center of the track, put a right-angle bend in the wires and fed them through a hole in the baseboard.
Quote
- definitely pre-tin the wires, this avoids having to use three arms to hold the soldering iron, wire and solder to the point
Also tin the underside of the rail. Then the wire can be "sweated" onto the track with a quick touch of the iron and you don't need a third hand to hold the solder as you say. 8)
I am moved to add a further comment to this thread:
I'm definitely no soldering expert as anyone who has seen my efforts will endorse, however I have to add to previous bits of advice posted here regarding using single strand wire (aka "bell wire").
I agree it is fine - however this is dependant upon what it is going to be used for. If the wire will in any way move, and I suspect that using it to bond moving point blades will result in some movement, then my advice is to always use multi-strand. Single strand will appear fine at first, but given sufficient time and repetitions of the movement it will surely fracture and will result in an absolute pig of a continuity problem to track down.
Multi-strand wire may appear to be more difficult to solder, but if you twist the bared ends and then tin them, the end of the wire takes on the same property as a bit of single strand, but the overall length of wire retains the strength and flexibilty of multi-strand. You know it makes sense if you think about it..... innit?
Mick
Definitely a good point Mick (pun not intended). In this case I'm adding the wires on to the stock rails and frog so hopefully movement won't be a problem.
Here's a photo of my wired up turnout, the wires will run over the top of the board to the operating switch so it was important to solder them on the right way round!
(https://forum.009society.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3067%2F2794021858_76670afb4f.jpg&hash=ef849cfb1b86521c04e85e97121d1b7d5f9c4f6d) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fairlightworks/2794021858)
Quote from: MickT on August 24, 2008, 15:49
I am moved to add a further comment to this thread:
I'm definitely no soldering expert as anyone who has seen my efforts will endorse, however I have to add to previous bits of advice posted here regarding using single strand wire (aka "bell wire").
I agree it is fine - however this is dependant upon what it is going to be used for. If the wire will in any way move, and I suspect that using it to bond moving point blades will result in some movement, then my advice is to always use multi-strand. Single strand will appear fine at first, but given sufficient time and repetitions of the movement it will surely fracture and will result in an absolute pig of a continuity problem to track down.
Agreed. The problem occurs when a sharp bend is put in the wire and this is subject to repeated movement. Often the failure happens at a soldered joint because this where the opportunity for a sharp bend is most likely but the same would happen if rigid strain relief was provided next to the joint. Hence single strand wire is fine if it routed and held down along its length (like bell wire) or kept out of harms way in conduit or between walls (like mains wiring).
Quote
Multi-strand wire may appear to be more difficult to solder, but if you twist the bared ends and then tin them, the end of the wire takes on the same property as a bit of single strand, but the overall length of wire retains the strength and flexibilty of multi-strand. You know it makes sense if you think about it..... innit?
... but don't tin multistrand wire that goes into screw terminal blocks. If you must, then just solder the very tip as if you were sealing the end of a nylon rope with a match to stop it fraying. If you tin the bare end and screw it down the metal will "creep" and work loose which can be dangerous if mains is involved.
Even stranded wire will fail at a soldered joint if "waggled" enough times (i.e. more likely than if it was not soldered). Effectively you have a solid wire at the joint, so you are back to square one. Strain relief helps - perhaps just a dab of hot melt glue or a cable tie. (They can cause problems too, pinching the wire, but that is another story!) Waggling wires is a big problem. Take a look at a (clothes) iron (careful you could end up doing the ironing ;) ) or a soldering iron. They have flexible strain relief to stop too sharp a bend being put in the wire where it will be waggled constantly.
Quote from: Graeme_D on August 25, 2008, 09:29
[... but don't tin multistrand wire that goes into screw terminal blocks. If you must, then just solder the very tip as if you were sealing the end of a nylon rope with a match to stop it fraying. If you tin the bare end and screw it down the metal will "creep" and work loose which can be dangerous if mains is involved.
Never knew that! I've always tinned it! But its all been low voltage use! I find that our friends in the IT or Telecom business can usually come up with small multicore wire, and in all different coloured wrappings all wrapped up in a grey tube! :D
Steve, I like the way the point was wired - did you glue the end sleepers or were they stable enough without?
Quote from: Hobby on September 01, 2008, 09:07
Steve, I like the way the point was wired - did you glue the end sleepers or were they stable enough without?
No, they're fine. The angles of the diverging rails keep everything secure enough until the turnout is fixed down.
Just wanted to agree and endorse Graeme's comment. Multistrand wired entering a screw terminal block or wrapped around a stud as in a 13A plug should NEVER be tinned first. Always twist them and the action of screwing down on the multistrand crushes it, gives a greater surface contact area and more chance for the screw to lock properly. A tinned end won't do that.
Been reading this string with great interest because my layout's ancient turnouts still rely on the blades only and desperately needs something to ensure the points actually carry the traction current!
Tigger.