Loading transporter wagons?

[danny]

As I remember it, the L&M the transporters initially carried the SG stock fairly low so as to allow full height SG stock to be carried without having an enormously high loading gauge (just a very high one!). 

When the six wheel tank wagons were introduced the gubbins hanging underneath the tank did not clear the ridge in the middle of the transporter wagon so a modification was made which involved a hinged flange that could be moved over the fixed rail to raise the rail height for the tank wagons.  So later photos will show a different height for the tank wagons than early ones.

Not suggesting you model the hinged part, but you can choose which version, high or low, to model.

Frank

In Alan Gee's Hulme End article from 2016, it suggests that Alan's initial design of transporter (outside bearings, standard gauge riding higher than the prototype) didn't work as it was too top-heavy, so a new version was created (closer to the prototype, inside bearings and lower centre of mass, but still slightly different as the standard gauge track is narrower than scale if using 00 gauge). I am not too bothered about exactly replicating the L&M design, but I had been under the impression that anything close to it is very difficult to do in 4mm scale if 16.5mm gauge is used for the standard gauge.

[JulienW]

Depending on how practical this is, it does seem like it might be quite a good avenue to explore. The motorised wagons would, for my purposes, remove the issue of coupling as they'd never have to be coupled to anything, while the motorised chassis would likely not be free-rolling so would hopefully avoid the issue of rolling off the transporters at the wrong time. I realise it would potentially introduce other complications but I'd still be interested to see a bit more about how others have used this method.

My suggestion would be to look into Nigel Lawton's belt drive systems - Here is what I have in mind for a 'traction motor' set up rather than the more usual model railway set up. It looks like it should be possible to have the motor above the axle so the 'back to back' would be clear for the 'spine' of the transporter wagon, but still low enough to clear the floor of an SG open wagon.

Having the SG as OO or one of its wider (EM, P4) variants is going to be a bit dependant on where the loaded transporter wagon is going to be running. Certainly the rtr HO scale versions seem to work using 16.5mm on the upper part, but I would not expect them to get around 9" radius curves! The main limiting factor will be the 009 curves you want the transporter to go around, as the sharper the curve the more 'swing' the bogie will need within the 'spine' and the wider that will need to be.  Uning (or making) an 'inside frame' bogie for the NG will give you more room, as will making P4 on the top, but if you are using wide curves(or none at all!) then you might get away with 16.5mm on top.

[danny]

Certainly the rtr HO scale versions seem to work using 16.5mm on the upper part, but I would not expect them to get around 9" radius curves! The main limiting factor will be the 009 curves you want the transporter to go around, as the sharper the curve the more 'swing' the bogie will need within the 'spine' and the wider that will need to be.  Uning (or making) an 'inside frame' bogie for the NG will give you more room, as will making P4 on the top, but if you are using wide curves(or none at all!) then you might get away with 16.5mm on top.

I thought the RTR ones get away with using 16.5mm on top because they are a different design, whereas the L&M design has a 'spine' in the middle that comes above the height of the standard gauge rails. It's supposed to be for a micro layout, but a shunting layout with mostly straight track so I don't need them to be able to run on 9" radius curves, or even at particularly high speeds.

[danny]

On a related subject, can anyone confirm whether the Leek & Manifold ever carried standard gauge van wagons on its transporters (as opposed to milk tanks and opens, which are a bit lower). I'm deciding whether to possibly ban van wagons from the layout I'm building to keep the loading gauge to a more manageable and not implausibly tall maximum height, but am unsure how this fits in with the prototype. I've seen some photos that possibly show a van wagon, but I can't be absolutely sure and other ones generally show opens or tanks.

[garrywhiting]

Yes, vans were carried, see photo on p307 of Robert Gratton's book "The Leek & Manifold Valley Light Railway".  Photo shows a GWR Mink A van on a transporter at Hulme End Station, so vans and various open wagons were carried on transporter wagons the full length of the line, whereas the milk tankers would not have been carried beyond Ecton.

Garry

[B.Meldon]

On a related subject, can anyone confirm whether the Leek & Manifold ever carried standard gauge van wagons on its transporters (as opposed to milk tanks and opens, which are a bit lower). I'm deciding whether to possibly ban van wagons from the layout I'm building to keep the loading gauge to a more manageable and not implausibly tall maximum height, but am unsure how this fits in with the prototype. I've seen some photos that possibly show a van wagon, but I can't be absolutely sure and other ones generally show opens or tanks.

Yes standard gauge vans were carried on the L&M. The height required was taller than that of a standard gauge line!!

I think it is 15' 3" above rail level on the L&M. That is about 60mm in 00 scale, plus the height of the rail and plastic track webbing you are probably looking at about 63-65mm from board/trackbed level.

See this link to google street view of one end of Swainsley Tunnel, that you can now drive through.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1166826,-1.8655942,3a,75y,201.13h,84.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBhmVCVuWR0yEOdonJfY10A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US

[danny]

On a related subject, can anyone confirm whether the Leek & Manifold ever carried standard gauge van wagons on its transporters (as opposed to milk tanks and opens, which are a bit lower). I'm deciding whether to possibly ban van wagons from the layout I'm building to keep the loading gauge to a more manageable and not implausibly tall maximum height, but am unsure how this fits in with the prototype. I've seen some photos that possibly show a van wagon, but I can't be absolutely sure and other ones generally show opens or tanks.

Yes standard gauge vans were carried on the L&M. The height required was taller than that of a standard gauge line!!

I think it is 15' 3" above rail level on the L&M. That is about 50mm in 00 scale, plus the height of the rail and plastic track webbing you are probably looking at about 53-55mm from board/trackbed level.

See this link to google street view of one end of Swainsley Tunnel, that you can now drive through.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1166826,-1.8655942,3a,75y,201.13h,84.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBhmVCVuWR0yEOdonJfY10A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US

Isn't it 61mm? And with the track underneath plus a bit of clearance that's potentially going to take it up to 70 or 80mm...

[B.Meldon]

Isn't it 61mm?

Yes!! Sorry about that. I have modified my post now!!

[danny]

A slightly different but related question - I can't remember reading about it anywhere and there don't seem to be many photos, but did the Leek & Manifold have any livestock traffic? In a way it's related to my original question, as I find it a bit unlikely that they would have used cattle wagons loaded onto transporters (because cattle can walk between standard and narrow gauge wagons so the time and money saved during transshipment isn't as significant). On the other hand I don't think they had a cattle wagon - they did have bogie flats and a covered van though, in addition to the transporters, and there were cattle in the area, hence the milk traffic carried on the line. I'm wondering if, on my freelance layout, I either need to represent livestock traffic in some way or be able to plausibly explain why it isn't represented, alongside the general goods traffic carried on the transporters.

[JulienW]

At a guess they may well have used an NG van with the doors wedged open a crack.  Iirc the vans had vents in the end as well.

It's something the Irish NG lines did (carrying livestock in 'ordinary' vans with the doors wedged to be open for ventilation but not so the animals could get out)

[danny]

At a guess they may well have used an NG van with the doors wedged open a crack.  Iirc the vans had vents in the end as well.

It's something the Irish NG lines did (carrying livestock in 'ordinary' vans with the doors wedged to be open for ventilation but not so the animals could get out)

Would that suggest though that it wasn't frequent enough to need specific vehicles? Didn't they only have one NG van anyway?

[duttonbay]

Would that suggest though that it wasn't frequent enough to need specific vehicles? Didn't they only have one NG van anyway?

That is what the big book says. One van, number 3 in their roster.

[JulienW]

At a guess they may well have used an NG van with the doors wedged open a crack.  Iirc the vans had vents in the end as well.

It's something the Irish NG lines did (carrying livestock in 'ordinary' vans with the doors wedged to be open for ventilation but not so the animals could get out)

Would that suggest though that it wasn't frequent enough to need specific vehicles? Didn't they only have one NG van anyway?

I also wonder that given the relatively short distances involved any cattle arriving or departing the Manifold Valley by rail would have done so from the standard gauge, getting to or from there on foot.

[danny]

At a guess they may well have used an NG van with the doors wedged open a crack.  Iirc the vans had vents in the end as well.

It's something the Irish NG lines did (carrying livestock in 'ordinary' vans with the doors wedged to be open for ventilation but not so the animals could get out)

Would that suggest though that it wasn't frequent enough to need specific vehicles? Didn't they only have one NG van anyway?

I also wonder that given the relatively short distances involved any cattle arriving or departing the Manifold Valley by rail would have done so from the standard gauge, getting to or from there on foot.

I wondered that as well, although the line was over 8 miles long. Though obviously I don't know if they would generally have needed to travel over the whole line. I still think using standard gauge cattle wagons on the transporters seems a bit unlikely (and I don't think I've seen pictures of them, only normal vans, opens and tank wagons).

[Crichworkshop2000]

You might like to see this on you tube  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyrKbpIdDwk which is my take on a transporter wagon. The standard gauge wagon is built to 18.83mm gauge using a 'High Level kit' fly shunter chassis [appears not available at the moment. This is a test track which worked perfectly but once fitted on the layout didn't work properly. the transporter wagon is drawn from plans in the book on the L&M by Robert Gratton but using inside frame bogies to allow greater rotation of the bogie