009 Society 'exclusive' kits

[Stan Williams]

There are at least 3 or 4 small traders who produce lineside items and buildings in various scales and some look very good.
In fact one has been in touch me to bring a stand to Rainford in September, if we can proceed with the show.

It does appear that the traders who produced loco fittings are not around these days and you have to consider why that is ?
Has Matt Chivers ever thought of doing it ?   May be an idea to ask him.

Dundas Models produces wagon chassis, does he sell as many of them as the full kits they are used for ?

All good ideas, but you will not survive, if you cabbot make any money.

Stan.

[Hobby]

The society isn't a business, Stan. Its making some money from the sales stand and that money is being invested into the kits. I doubt there will be much profit in the sales from them. That's how it should be. The society kits are just there to help members and all we are discussing is ideas for the future.

Regards lineside stuff and buildings I was thinking NG specific, whilst there is a small amount of stuff around there's still plenty of more could be modelled.

[Hugh Norwood]

All good ideas, but you will not survive, if you cannot make any money.

Stan.

I don't think Stan was referring to the Society with this sentence, Blair - I took it to mean that the (small) businessperson won't do this if there's no profit (however small) in it.

On the other hand - there appear to be 3D printers who maybe able to make fittings - at least they won't have to carry a stock.

[Hobby]

I thought that the point with the society kits is that they are produced as a service to the members, not to make money. So whether they make money is not relevant to the discussion. If there is a demand for something, even if it would not be one that would be commercially viable, surely that's where the society should look.

I was simply making suggestions in regard of lineside items, it's all too easy to dismiss it as Stan has done and concentrate just on stock, but why should we? Surely we should be open to all suggestions?

Why not ask the question in the News. No doubt it will produce lots of varying answers but I suspect some good suggestions will also be made.

As you say with 3D printing even more may be possible, but laser cut kits are also a way, there's a lot more ways to produce things these days than just brass, white metal and plastic!

[Stan Williams]

Blair,
I put it in words twice,  it is a good idea, but you have to look beyond that.
I never mentioned the society making a profit and they will not be manufacturer, but the person or persons producing them,
will have to make a profit.
How much would you be willing to pay for loco fittings, or buildings or other lineside items ?

There is nothing stopping you going out and finding someone (an individual or a business) asking for a quote and then going to the
society committee giving them the the details and asking if they would go ahead with the project, or ask society memmbers if they are
interested.
You have Matt Chivers e-mail address maybe a telephone number, why not ask him if he would quote for a supply of loco domes,
chimneys, safety valves, plus any other items that come to mind.
You could also ask the society to stock metal wagon wheels.

Stan.

[Hobby]

Thanks for agreeing it's a good idea, Stan.

How they get them produced will be down to them, not me, as I am sure you know. As they've already had some made I am sure they will be fully aware of the costs of manufacture, and have the contacts, so it's not something that I feel is relevant to the discussion other than if the quote is too high they'll have to look at something else! But that's what they'll have done with the existing kits.

I have that feeling we are going round in circles, perhaps misunderstanding each other's points!

[clayliner]

Sales already have a contact for high-quality 3-D printing who has already provided some useful spares such as replacement gears. Other 'bits and bobs' are a possibility.

David.

[Frank]

One of the perennial problems with 009 is the lack of suitable chassis for many of the loco kits available. 

Is there anything the Society can do to alleviate this?   Perhaps commissioning someone to make some chassis, or alternatively perhaps buying commercially produced chassis from a loco manufacturer and making these available to members without the extra cost of an unwanted body?  An individual is unlikely to get very far approaching a manufacturer for a single chassis, but the society could perhaps order enough to be of interest to the manufacturer.

Frank

[Hobby]

Once you've decided on the appropriate chassis requirements , Frank!

Number of wheels.
Wheelbase.
Wheel diameter.
Inside or outside frames.

Even designing a chassis kit that would be able to fit all the varients would be a job in itself! I suspect a kit of parts could be a possibility, though the trouble then is that many modellers are just not interested in constructing them (or, like me, haven't got the skill set), 009 has built itself round rtr chassis.

Good idea, though, and one to throw into the melting pot!

[B.Meldon]

One of the perennial problems with 009 is the lack of suitable chassis for many of the loco kits available. 

Is there anything the Society can do to alleviate this?   Perhaps commissioning someone to make some chassis, or alternatively perhaps buying commercially produced chassis from a loco manufacturer and making these available to members without the extra cost of an unwanted body?  An individual is unlikely to get very far approaching a manufacturer for a single chassis, but the society could perhaps order enough to be of interest to the manufacturer.

Frank

There are suitable chassis. For example, the Minitrains chassis, the Roco 0-6-0 and the Bachmann Percy.
There are 009 kits available for these chassis.

These chassis are good quality and run well, the kits that have been produced for them are of a high quality.

What is missing is the cheap chassis for the 009 kits dating from the 1980's and 1990's.

The simple fact is that it does not cost much less to make a chassis in a factory in China than it does to make a complete loco and there are no model loco production factories outside China anymore.

So, for example a Minitrains 0-4-0 chassis would cost about the same as a complete Minitrains loco!
Why would the manufacture provide chassis that would have to be sold for less than a complete loco when it would cost hardly any less to have it made!

The days of cheap, in some cases subsidised N gauge chassis is over and it will never return.

[David Weber]

Perhaps

The days of cheap, in some cases subsidised N gauge chassis is over and it will never return.

In terms of steam chassis, maybe

But just look at the trade in tram and bo-bo/multiple unit chassis from the likes of Kato and Tomytec. Affordable, plentiful and in a wide variety of specifications. These are the modern equivalent of all those cheap steam chassis from the 80s and 90s. The profusion of skirted steam engine prints is clear evidence of this, the modern equivalent of a Pugbash-n'-Dock Tank. If you don't like those, a cheap carriage or van kit body hacked about a bit and you have a nice railcar for the tram or bo-bo chassis, and probably at less cost than the pug n'tank was when new.

I know, there are few kits to fit these chassis, excluding the prints.

[Hobby]

There are suitable chassis. For example, the Minitrains chassis, the Roco 0-6-0 and the Bachmann Percy.
There are 009 kits available for these chassis.

There are very few 009 body kits which have an RTR chassis that is accurate for the kit, though, Brian. Whilst those chassis can be used they are, at best, a compromise. So a "vari-chassis-kit" is an alternative and would probably be cheaper than a "one chassis fits all" which is what we already have. The issue is whether it's possible. As we have a member who actually makes chassis, and variable wheelbase ones at that, it may be worth the powers that be have a discussion about it. Which I am sure they will, or maybe already have, who knows!

[JulienW]

One of the perennial problems with 009 is the lack of suitable chassis for many of the loco kits available. 

Is there anything the Society can do to alleviate this?   Perhaps commissioning someone to make some chassis, or alternatively perhaps buying commercially produced chassis from a loco manufacturer and making these available to members without the extra cost of an unwanted body?  An individual is unlikely to get very far approaching a manufacturer for a single chassis, but the society could perhaps order enough to be of interest to the manufacturer.

Frank

It is something that has been discussed before.

The first stumbling block, as Hobby points out, is what sort of a chassis does the Society produce? I very much doubt that there is a 'one size fits all' solution to that one.

Even if the "one size fits all" solution could be found, the problem then is that with a possible minimum order of 10,000 units and only 2000 members that's going to be a hard one to justify, and we'd also need someone to manage the project, from the design stage through to holding and managing the stocks of unsold chassis that are going to be sat around for some time, and an awful lot of cash tied up in the project.  Even approaching one of the manufactures of current chassis I suspect the minimum order would be several hundred, which still means someone having to hold quite significant stocks and the Society tying up cash.

Missing from Brian's list, and something that does fill the gap left by the lack of chassis for 009 kits dating from the 1980's and 1990's, are the products of N-Drive Productions.  Whilst Neville's lead times are quite long (understandable from a one man band cottage industry where the one man concerned is also trying to hold down a full time job to pay the bills) I have several of his chassis and would recommend them as being well worth the wait time between placing your order and Neville asking for payment as he has built it.

[Hobby]

Neville was the person I was thinking about when I suggested a chassis vari-kit, Julien. He has the expertise.

[Stan Williams]

I know I am only talking about one 0-4-0 chassis, but the conversations with Mr Kato suggested he would make available
the England chassis for scratch builders.
It maybe possible the society could purchase these and I would not think you would have to order thousands (but who knows).

Certainly in the past the manufacturer wanted large orders, but I noticed recently and I think it maybe Bachmann is producing
a batch of locos, but there will be only 150 of them (standard gauge).

The question is always, do the society want to tie up funds and has been said, how long will the stock last ?

Stan.